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Post by rageaholic on Dec 26, 2011 11:52:08 GMT -5
This is just my observation, but there seems to be a lot of hating on teenagers. Not just hate but, lack of understanding and lack of respect from adults who expect the same from them. -They have less rights than adults, yet people constantly complain about how spoiled, undisciplined, and entitled they are. -They are forced to go to High School with social clichs (sp?), bullying, drug use, all kinds of peer preasure, and zero tolerance policies. -They are singled out by cops and often abused over incredibly stupid things. (just look up cops vs skaters on youtube and you'll see what I mean). -Some malls have curfews which ban teens from the mall without adult supervision. -Any time they complain about something in their life, they are brushed off by "moral" adults. Just look up anything on yahoo answers and most of the time, when teens complain about something, they get told "suck it up" or "that's life". The complaints can be perfectly reasonable, but they are never taken seriously because of their age. I'm not denying that teens are capible of horrible shit. Some are spoiled brats and can be extremely obnoxious, but like with many other things, I think the bad bunch ruin it for the rest of them. They are put in a hostile and toxic environment (high school), and a lot of the time, the solutions to protect them end up only making it worse for those who are not bad. No wonder there's a high rate of depression in teens.
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Post by Dragon Zachski on Dec 26, 2011 14:52:37 GMT -5
1. I know that the teenage years are generally the "stage of rebellion" in the growth of a human being, but... sweeping generalizations about anything, age groups included, is very very bad.
2. I was home schooled. I suppose in some states they don't allow that, but in most states, that is an option.
3. Cops are being quite abusive period, I've noticed.
4. I'm... not sure what to think of curfews...
5. Mind listing an example?
I think your assessment of the situation is correct. The majority are not spoiled brats (the spoiled brats just stand out more, giving the illusion that they are the majority when they are not)
High school isn't always a hostile and toxic environment, but it can be, and the lack of measures taken against the preventable aspects of it are just horrendous. And the measures that punish the victim 100x more than the bully... yeah, how does that even make sense!?
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Post by tolpuddlemartyr on Dec 26, 2011 16:58:18 GMT -5
This is just my observation, but there seems to be a lot of hating on teenagers. Not just hate but, lack of understanding and lack of respect from adults who expect the same from them. Those same adults were teenagers themselves, I wouldn't argue that teenagers are universally seen as bad. Heck, I don't see as much marketing directed towards my demographic. Teachers in their 40's. -They have less rights than adults, yet people constantly complain about how spoiled, undisciplined, and entitled they are. This is true, and the rights of teenagers definitely need to be better defined. But hey, the "teen rebellion" trope goes all the way back to the fifties if not earlier, which is exactly how long teens and adults have been butting heads about exactly the same thing they are now. -They are forced to go to High School with social clichs (sp?), bullying, drug use, all kinds of peer preasure, and zero tolerance policies. Now here is where I'm going to disagree with you, vehemently! In western industrialized societies like Australia, Canada, the UK and the US kids are incredibly lucky to be getting mandatory secondary education. I completely fail to see how getting near-universal literacy and numeracy is a bad thing! Go tell a slum kid from Mumbai or Lagos how hard it is being forced to go to high school-it's a damn sight better than being forced into a sweatshop, an armed militia, a life of petty thievery-or child prostitution! As an ESL teacher I've taught a lot of refugee kids from the Congo, Sudan and Somalia and they love school-because they come from countries where it's a luxury! -They are singled out by cops and often abused over incredibly stupid things. (just look up cops vs skaters on youtube and you'll see what I mean). I'll pay this, I think what a lot of it comes down to is a lot of young coppers are barely out of their teens themselves. When they see a group of young people hanging about it all gets a little tribal. I'd argue a partial solution would be better training. -Some malls have curfews which ban teens from the mall without adult supervision. Again, no argument here. That's ageist discrimination and not a good thing. -Any time they complain about something in their life, they are brushed off by "moral" adults. Just look up anything on yahoo answers and most of the time, when teens complain about something, they get told "suck it up" or "that's life". The complaints can be perfectly reasonable, but they are never taken seriously because of their age. Depends on the complaint. Notice I'm quite happy to say it's unreasonable for people prevent you having access to shopping malls because of your age but I'm completely disagreeing with you on the issue of mandatory secondary education. This is the internet and folks will disagree with you! Happens outside the internet too. I'm not denying that teens are capible of horrible shit. Some are spoiled brats and can be extremely obnoxious, but like with many other things, I think the bad bunch ruin it for the rest of them. They are put in a hostile and toxic environment (high school), and a lot of the time, the solutions to protect them end up only making it worse for those who are not bad. No wonder there's a high rate of depression in teens. OK, high schools are often dysfunctional. No argument there, I've worked in plenty of ones which have all the issues you describe. They are also places where teachers work overtime to get poor kids scholarships, where the first access to assistance for teens with family issues, abuse or mental health issues is offered and where teens are put in touch with future employers and providers of tertiary and vocational education for the first time. As I've already said, you are never going to convince me that attempting to provide universal numeracy and literacy is a bad thing, indeed I'd argue that it's essential for a functioning democracy! We don't always get the solutions right, but we are working our arses off to try. If you want to know what happens when we aren't there to do it just ask the aforementioned slum kids from Haiti, Brazil, Mumbai or Lagos!
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Post by rageaholic on Dec 26, 2011 18:57:37 GMT -5
1. I know that the teenage years are generally the "stage of rebellion" in the growth of a human being, but... sweeping generalizations about anything, age groups included, is very very bad. Yeah. I'd even go as far as to argue that some of the rebellion is justified, particularly if they come from a religious household. I was homeschooled as well so I may not be completely right, but everything I know about high school makes it sound more like a prison than an education institution. I have a brother who went to High School, read many things online about it, and experienced Middle School, which was hell on earth. Yeah some cops are dicks, but they seem especially biased against teenagers... or black people (but that's for another thread). I find them unnecessary and only gives cops a chance to be dicks. answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=ArYoomEsUfRjgfz8eNpq6ZcjzKIX;_ylv=3?qid=20101201171343AAvtosmI don't know if this is a response to a teenager, but it has the same tone of brushing them off. I really really resent when people bring up worse situations to make light of your own. It actually makes things worse by making me think "oh great, it can get worse". And that's why I take issue with tolpuddlemartyr's part on High School. Just because there are worse alternatives does not mean the current system is perfect. Yes, free education is good, but that's not the issue. The issue is with High School, all the bullying, and how students there don't seem to have many rights.
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Post by Vene on Dec 26, 2011 19:08:52 GMT -5
I was homeschooled as well so I may not be completely right, but everything I know about high school makes it sound more like a prison than an education institution. I have a brother who went to High School, read many things online about it, and experienced Middle School, which was hell on earth. I can use anecdotes too! I went to a public school in a rural town. I was respected by faculty and the students (even though I was a big science geek). The school also let me enroll at the local college at their expense, which gave me a great start on higher education. The most totalitarian thing I encountered was them removing the time we had to move from class to class during middle school the year when there was half a dozen bomb threats. The next year things went back to normal.
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Post by DeadpanDoubter on Dec 26, 2011 19:21:13 GMT -5
Now here is where I'm going to disagree with you, vehemently! In western industrialized societies like Australia, Canada, the UK and the US kids are incredibly lucky to be getting mandatory secondary education. I completely fail to see how getting near-universal literacy and numeracy is a bad thing! The issue with high schools typically is NOT "oh no they're making us LEARN STUFF!" nor is that the point Rage is making. Granted, some morons equate high school with slavery (I'm not even kidding) but again, that is NOT what Rage was saying. He was talking about the social situations and issues that come part-and-parcel with high school attendance and how these issues are handwaved away by adults. Also, since you find the idea that others have it worse therefore people have no reason to complain, I assume you have no issue with corporal punishment that doesn't break bones and that you think American atheists are idiots for complaining about the problems they have that seem minor in comparison to the executions faced by atheists in some other countries.
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Post by The_L on Dec 26, 2011 20:57:34 GMT -5
High school cliques are horrible, and unless you're captain of the football team or head cheerleader or uber-rich, it's the worst years of your life. But you also have disposable income, free food and board, and the occasional use of your parents' car.
The awfulness of being a teenager is to prepare you for being an adult, where the problems are different but have longer-reaching consequences.
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Post by DarkfireTaimatsu on Dec 26, 2011 22:31:48 GMT -5
It's hard. Being a kid and growing up. It's hard and no one understands.
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Post by Smurfette Principle on Dec 26, 2011 23:04:25 GMT -5
High school cliques are horrible, and unless you're captain of the football team or head cheerleader or uber-rich, it's the worst years of your life. But you also have disposable income, free food and board, and the occasional use of your parents' car. If you're lucky. I was almost bottom of the food chain, was poor enough to be looked down on by the "smart" kids (the ones rich enough to get into advanced classes), and still can't use my parents' car because I don't have a driver's license. It's hard. Being a kid and growing up. It's hard and no one understands. I love you, Tai.
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Post by DarkfireTaimatsu on Dec 27, 2011 5:23:37 GMT -5
It's hard. Being a kid and growing up. It's hard and no one understands. I love you, Tai. I am generally enamoured by your personage as well. =D
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Post by rookie on Dec 27, 2011 12:04:53 GMT -5
I work with a bunch of teenagers. And they, like all people, are a mixed bag. Some are junior douches. Some are generally good kids. Most are somewhere in the middle. They make dumb mistakes. But they are the dumb mistakes that provide invaluable experience for later on in life. The same kind of dumb mistakes I made a decade and a half earlier. And they are working for beer money where I am working for the mortgage. But that's fine. During my teenage years I drank much of my take home pay as well. It's where they are and I was in life. So we really don't have a whole lot in common. I have no interest in their parties and whatever they have gong on in school. A lot like they couldn't give less of a shit what my kids are up to.
Sometimes I see kids heading down a road I have traveled. And not a good road. I understand on some level that sometimes you have to touch the stove to realize it really is hot. And I know I have burned my proverbial fingers more than once. But it will still sadden me to see someone reach for it. I can show them my scorched fingers from where I touched the very same stove. And it's frustrating to see them blow it off the same way I blew it off. Me, I don't like seeing people get hurt. Especially if it's within my power to stop. But that's the way it goes sometimes I guess.
Short answer, I don't hate them (most of the time). But sometimes I see them doing things I recognize from the experience I've gained as stupid.
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Post by Her3tiK on Dec 27, 2011 22:58:08 GMT -5
-Any time they complain about something in their life, they are brushed off by "moral" adults. Just look up anything on yahoo answers and most of the time, when teens complain about something, they get told "suck it up" or "that's life". The complaints can be perfectly reasonable, but they are never taken seriously because of their age. This. So much this. Just because someone's young doesn't mean they don't have valid complaints or, especially if said person has an interest in politics/religion/touchy subjects, that they don't understand the subject. Sure, plenty of the ideas my generation has may be "naive" and "wishful thinking", but it's not like the "adults" are getting shit right. If you know something's wrong, but lack the conviction and inner fire to do something about it, shut up and get out of the way.
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Post by RavynousHunter on Dec 28, 2011 18:34:30 GMT -5
Gross over-generalizations of any sort piss me off. Kids...can think, you moronic fucksticks. Shit, I've known kids who were more well-adjusted than a lot of adults I know.
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Post by Shane for Wax on Dec 28, 2011 19:15:45 GMT -5
Reminds me of this story. I generally make an opinion on people as people not on their age.
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Post by lighthorseman on Dec 30, 2011 21:08:35 GMT -5
This is because teenagers, as a group, suck.
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