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Post by wmdkitty on Mar 17, 2009 15:44:13 GMT -5
Well, the two most often cited reasons for the death penalty are that it's cheaper than keeping the inmate in prison (which is absolutely is not) and that it is a deterrent to other potential criminals (which is absolutely is not). Beyond these two demostratably false reasons, there really is not justification other than "God wants it that way" or societal revenge. The only reason DP is more expensive is that these pieces of SHIT get endless appeals and do everything they can to keep their case tied up in court. If we'd limit them to a fixed number of appeals, within a time limit (two appeals, three years), and set a maximum time frame from sentencing to actual execution (six years would be fair), we'd save a shit ton of money, time, and other resources better used fighting ongoing crime. I honestly don't CARE if the convict is mentally ill, or retarded, or whatever excuse he comes up with -- he should still be held fully responsible for his actions. There is no such thing as "mitigating circumstances", because this usually means the offender was high or drunk and "didn't know what they were doing", which is a bunch of bullshit. I don't believe in the insanity defense, either -- it's just another way for this scum to dodge justice.
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Post by Shano on Mar 17, 2009 18:21:50 GMT -5
Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned?
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Post by ltfred on Mar 17, 2009 18:52:57 GMT -5
WMDkitty, I have one question. Why?
If it's not going to deter further crimes, lessen past crimes in any way, or directly prevent future crimes, what is the point of the death penalty? Is it not simply murder?
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Post by Paradox on Mar 17, 2009 18:53:54 GMT -5
Well, the two most often cited reasons for the death penalty are that it's cheaper than keeping the inmate in prison (which is absolutely is not) and that it is a deterrent to other potential criminals (which is absolutely is not). Beyond these two demostratably false reasons, there really is not justification other than "God wants it that way" or societal revenge. The only reason DP is more expensive is that these pieces of SHIT get endless appeals and do everything they can to keep their case tied up in court. If we'd limit them to a fixed number of appeals, within a time limit (two appeals, three years), and set a maximum time frame from sentencing to actual execution (six years would be fair), we'd save a shit ton of money, time, and other resources better used fighting ongoing crime. I honestly don't CARE if the convict is mentally ill, or retarded, or whatever excuse he comes up with -- he should still be held fully responsible for his actions. There is no such thing as "mitigating circumstances", because this usually means the offender was high or drunk and "didn't know what they were doing", which is a bunch of bullshit. I don't believe in the insanity defense, either -- it's just another way for this scum to dodge justice. ...I really can't think of anything to say about that.
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Post by wmdkitty on Mar 17, 2009 21:07:49 GMT -5
Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned? You haven't heard about my ex. I'll give you the short version: The bastard raped me, beat me, choked me, and held a fucking knife to my throat, and the police did NOTHING. He bit a chunk out one roomie's hand, choked another into unconsciousness, and punched a third, and only got seven months -- SEVEN FUCKING MONTHS -- when he's a "frequent flyer", if you know what I mean. If a man knows "If I hit my wife, I will be sentenced to death" he will stop and reconsider it. (If he's not a sociopath or psychopath.) If he's either a Socio- or Psychopath, he'll do it anyway -- no conscience, no guilt, no remorse, refuses to admit that he did anything wrong, and people like that SHOULD be removed (forcibly, if necessary) from society. There is no cure for this shit, and it's too expensive to warehouse them for life. WMDkitty, I have one question. Why? If it's not going to deter further crimes, lessen past crimes in any way, or directly prevent future crimes, what is the point of the death penalty? Is it not simply murder? As I outlined above, with the proper limitations on appeals, and on the timeline from sentencing to execution (which is now typically 15-20 years), the DP CAN BE AN EFFECTIVE MONEY SAVER. Again, allow two appeals, both to be made within three years of sentencing. Execution should take place no later than 8 years (ideally, 6 years) after sentencing. No last-minute appeals to drag it out, no asking for a stay of execution. Secondly, it DOES prevent future crimes -- the guy you put to death CANNOT HURT ANYONE ELSE. Third, you can't cure a pedophile, rapist, or wife-beater with anything short of death. It's been proven time and again that, if you let them back into society, they'll just do it again, and this time they'll be more likely to kill the victim so they don't get reported. There is NO REHABILITATION FOR THESE PIECES OF SHIT. A dead man can't beat and rape his wife. A dead man can't molest a child. A dead man can't KILL his girlfriend. Executing these fuckers *will* set an example for those who follow -- as in, "don't do what he did."
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Post by ausador on Mar 17, 2009 21:33:23 GMT -5
And how about the 130 people released from death row as innocent since 1973? The average person released had spent approx. 12 years in prison before his release. If we followed your little personally motivated revenge theory they would all have been executed before the evidence that they were innocent was discovered. Your letting your emotion prevent you from being rational... www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/innocence-and-death-penalty
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Post by Shano on Mar 17, 2009 22:00:24 GMT -5
I will give you the benefit of the doubt, wmdkitty. In that I can not honestly say I will not react like you in the same circumstances. But from rational standpoint there is a lot of fail in your arguments. So I will have to say I take pride in my attitude.
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Post by erictheblue on Mar 18, 2009 10:02:57 GMT -5
While I think the 2 appeal limit and max 6 years from conviction to death is a bit extreme, I do kind of agree with wmdkitty.
We put down animals who are a danger to themselves or others. Why should other animals get better treatment, just because they appear human.
I'm not sure about first offense = DP, but we already have a "three strikes" law, so why not make some variation of that. First time, long sentence. Second time, longer sentence. Third time, Grim Reaper.
Then again, I also sort of support putting kiddie-fliddlers in the general prison population.
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Post by Death on Mar 18, 2009 13:16:20 GMT -5
Well, the two most often cited reasons for the death penalty are that it's cheaper than keeping the inmate in prison (which is absolutely is not) and that it is a deterrent to other potential criminals (which is absolutely is not). Beyond these two demostratably false reasons, there really is not justification other than "God wants it that way" or societal revenge. The only reason DP is more expensive is that these pieces of SHIT get endless appeals and do everything they can to keep their case tied up in court. If we'd limit them to a fixed number of appeals, within a time limit (two appeals, three years), and set a maximum time frame from sentencing to actual execution (six years would be fair), we'd save a shit ton of money, time, and other resources better used fighting ongoing crime. I honestly don't CARE if the convict is mentally ill, or retarded, or whatever excuse he comes up with -- he should still be held fully responsible for his actions. There is no such thing as "mitigating circumstances", because this usually means the offender was high or drunk and "didn't know what they were doing", which is a bunch of bullshit. I don't believe in the insanity defense, either -- it's just another way for this scum to dodge justice. wow, more of that wmd compassion and understanding of the basic principles of western jurisprudence.. Do you even understand the concepts of guilt and accountability?
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Post by Death on Mar 18, 2009 13:22:44 GMT -5
Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned? You haven't heard about my ex. I'll give you the short version: The bastard raped me, beat me, choked me, and held a fucking knife to my throat, and the police did NOTHING. He bit a chunk out one roomie's hand, choked another into unconsciousness, and punched a third, and only got seven months -- SEVEN FUCKING MONTHS -- when he's a "frequent flyer", if you know what I mean. If a man knows "If I hit my wife, I will be sentenced to death" he will stop and reconsider it. (If he's not a sociopath or psychopath.) If he's either a Socio- or Psychopath, he'll do it anyway -- no conscience, no guilt, no remorse, refuses to admit that he did anything wrong, and people like that SHOULD be removed (forcibly, if necessary) from society. There is no cure for this shit, and it's too expensive to warehouse them for life. WMDkitty, I have one question. Why? If it's not going to deter further crimes, lessen past crimes in any way, or directly prevent future crimes, what is the point of the death penalty? Is it not simply murder? As I outlined above, with the proper limitations on appeals, and on the timeline from sentencing to execution (which is now typically 15-20 years), the DP CAN BE AN EFFECTIVE MONEY SAVER. Again, allow two appeals, both to be made within three years of sentencing. Execution should take place no later than 8 years (ideally, 6 years) after sentencing. No last-minute appeals to drag it out, no asking for a stay of execution. Secondly, it DOES prevent future crimes -- the guy you put to death CANNOT HURT ANYONE ELSE. Third, you can't cure a pedophile, rapist, or wife-beater with anything short of death. It's been proven time and again that, if you let them back into society, they'll just do it again, and this time they'll be more likely to kill the victim so they don't get reported. There is NO REHABILITATION FOR THESE PIECES OF SHIT. A dead man can't beat and rape his wife. A dead man can't molest a child. A dead man can't KILL his girlfriend. Executing these fuckers *will* set an example for those who follow -- as in, "don't do what he did." Nice to see you used the word first. Well, sweetie if anyone's a psychopath it's you. Regarding everyone as exactly the same, be they a child, mentally or physically disabled, and disallowing mitigating circumstances shows a profound lack of the ability to empathise and is an indicator of psychopathy. And for someone who is a self professed victim of violence it seems you haven't learnt that violence solves nothing, adds nothing to the world but more suffering. In fact you want to add to the sum total of suffering, as long as you feel it's justified hmmm, rationalise it how you want, you are a sick fuck.
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Post by brendanjd on Mar 18, 2009 17:07:28 GMT -5
A dead man can't beat and rape his wife. A dead man can't molest a child. A dead man can't KILL his girlfriend. Playing the Devil's Advocate: Neither can men who are incarcerated for life. Not that I'm saying rape, child molestation, and domestic abuse/murder don't deserve the DP. But you have to think about it. Kids make shit up all the time. Disgruntled spouses do the same. If they didn't, there wouldn't be any cases of one parent brainwashing the kid against the other. Would you like to have the blood of an innocent man on your hands? Frankly, I feel that, if you support the death penalty, and an innocent man hangs, you are at least partially responsible. And isn't the informal policy of the US justice system "better to see 100 guilty men go free than to see one innocent man hang"? Personally, I'd rather see a muderer/wife beater/sexual predator in jail for life than dead. Given that the three lowest positions in the Prison Totem Pole are sexual predators, wife beaters, and cop killers, I'd say a life sentence for any of them is ten times the punishment of prick in the arm and then falling asleep.
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Post by skyfire on Mar 18, 2009 17:10:17 GMT -5
Not that I'm not saying rape, child molestation, and domestic abuse/murder don't deserve the DP. But you have to think about it. Kids make shit up all the time. Disgruntled spouses do the same. If they didn't, there wouldn't be any cases of one parent brainwashing the kid against the other. Thank you for saying that. Over on the other board, I got raked over the coals when I pointed this fact out as justification for not joining a lynch mob that was starting to form.
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Post by ltfred on Mar 18, 2009 17:31:15 GMT -5
Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned? If a man knows "If I hit my wife, I will be sentenced to death" he will stop and reconsider it. (If he's not a sociopath or psychopath.) Actually, no. The deterrence of the death penalty is no greater than that of life imprisonment. The threat of simple life imprisonment with make a rational person think twice, then again, then not do it. But to a person acting irrationally, ratcheting the punishment up to death will have no effect. As I outlined above, with the proper limitations on appeals, and on the timeline from sentencing to execution (which is now typically 15-20 years), the DP CAN BE AN EFFECTIVE MONEY SAVER. In other words, so long as we give Habeus Corpus a little rest, and forget all the burdens of proof, we can do it on the cheap? That would be an EVEN MORE unreliable trial process than the one we've already got! Secondly, it DOES prevent future crimes -- the guy you put to death CANNOT HURT ANYONE ELSE. Neither can a permenantly imprisoned person. Third, you can't cure a pedophile, rapist, or wife-beater with anything short of death. It's been proven time and again that, if you let them back into society, they'll just do it again, and this time they'll be more likely to kill the victim so they don't get reported. There is NO REHABILITATION FOR THESE PIECES OF SHIT. Hey, I'm not arguing. I merely make the point that the same result can be achieved, cheaper (at the moment) and more fairly with life imprisonment. In my opinion, murder is the killing of a person without the need to via self-defense, or some other defense. Why should this revenge killing, which protects nobody, be regarded as anything but?
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Post by Shano on Mar 18, 2009 17:46:15 GMT -5
Not that I'm not saying rape, child molestation, and domestic abuse/murder don't deserve the DP. But you have to think about it. Kids make shit up all the time. Disgruntled spouses do the same. If they didn't, there wouldn't be any cases of one parent brainwashing the kid against the other. Thank you for saying that. Over on the other board, I got raked over the coals when I pointed this fact out as justification for not joining a lynch mob that was starting to form. Am I misinterpreting or is that a rational thought from Skyfire? Has hell frozen over??
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Post by brendanjd on Mar 18, 2009 17:59:30 GMT -5
I dunno. I accidentally wrote a double negative, turning the point into the exact opposite of what I wanted.
I was saying that while I do wish death on child molestors and the like, I don't believe in the DP due to the possbility of an innocent man hanging.
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