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Post by Thejebusfire on Jul 7, 2009 16:47:49 GMT -5
I really don't see how someone could leave a baby in a car for hours.
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Post by wmdkitty on Jul 7, 2009 16:54:37 GMT -5
HOLD THE PRESSES! My request for assistance in finding relevant articles to forgetfulness has caused two of my PhD psychologist friends to argue about the validity of the data on the frequency of dissociating repetitive memories. Is that the thing where, like, you could swear on a stack of "The God Delusion" that you'd locked the door, but you really hadn't?
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Post by wmdkitty on Jul 7, 2009 16:56:02 GMT -5
@keresm -- So just because -you- "could never forget your kid" means that -everybody- is the same as you, and anyone who does happen to forget is "stupid". Nice. Real nice. I could easily forget a child. Same as I could easily forget to lock the door, to check the mail, to forget a textbook or homework, or even my head (if it wasn't attached). I've forgotten to take important medications, to make important phone calls, even forgotten to -eat-. Does that make me "stupid"? I'd still like this answered, plz.
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Post by keresm on Jul 7, 2009 17:13:22 GMT -5
@keresm -- So just because -you- "could never forget your kid" means that -everybody- is the same as you, and anyone who does happen to forget is "stupid". Nice. Real nice. I could easily forget a child. Same as I could easily forget to lock the door, to check the mail, to forget a textbook or homework, or even my head (if it wasn't attached). I've forgotten to take important medications, to make important phone calls, even forgotten to -eat-. Does that make me "stupid"? . If you left your kid in a risky if not nearly always fatal situation, then yes, I would say that does indeed make you stupid. So stupid, in fact, I think you should spend time in jail to think long and hard on just how stupid you were. Not if you actually love, care for, and value that child. And if you choose to have a child and don't love, care for, and value that child, you are stupid. Frankly, thinking it doesn't make you stupid is rather stupid. Yes, it is, and you are one of the ones assuming it. I provided you with many examples of 'good mothers' snapping and killing their children. And you didn't find this information out in your earlier search?
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Post by wmdkitty on Jul 7, 2009 17:21:03 GMT -5
Keresm, you need to take off the "mommy" glasses, stop behaving like a child, and get your head out of your ass.
It is POSSIBLE to FORGET A SLEEPING CHILD, when IT IS OUT OF YOUR SIGHT, like the BACK SEAT of the car.
You're being an asshole, please knock it off.
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Post by dantesvirgil on Jul 7, 2009 18:41:25 GMT -5
Keresm, you need to take off the "mommy" glasses, stop behaving like a child, and get your head out of your ass. It is POSSIBLE to FORGET A SLEEPING CHILD, when IT IS OUT OF YOUR SIGHT, like the BACK SEAT of the car. You're being an asshole, please knock it off. So are you. Do you really believe it's possible to forget you gave birth and have offspring because you're not immediately looking at it? Because that's what it sounds like you're arguing. Babies are not the same things as locked doors.
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Post by canadian mojo on Jul 7, 2009 19:04:57 GMT -5
Keresm, you need to take off the "mommy" glasses, stop behaving like a child, and get your head out of your ass. It is POSSIBLE to FORGET A SLEEPING CHILD, when IT IS OUT OF YOUR SIGHT, like the BACK SEAT of the car. You're being an asshole, please knock it off. So are you. Do you really believe it's possible to forget you gave birth and have offspring because you're not immediately looking at it? Because that's what it sounds like you're arguing. Babies are not the same things as locked doors. Wow, I'm a father does this mean I get to play middle of the road? My emotional and physical investment in an infant is considerably less than yours yours DV, but I've actually looked after an infant on a daily basis so I know what's actually involved unlike wmdkitty. The fact of the matter is that if you placed the child in the car it is extremely unlikely that you will forget that you put it there. There is simply too much planning and prep work involved. However, if you didn't place the child in the car, and the person who did is no longer in the vehicle when you stop and get out then it is possible. It is an extremely unlikely series of events, but it is possible.
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Post by dantesvirgil on Jul 7, 2009 19:16:18 GMT -5
lonelocust: our replies are getting l-o-o-o-oooong. I do think it's true that society comes to the conclusion that babies who die in hot cars are "tragedies" first rather than neglect. Look at the number of times in those articles about such things that "accident," "tragedy" and other words pertaining to "didn't mean to do it" are used. Consider that Washington Post article you keep calling a "tear-jerker" -- why so? Articles written about sexually abusive parents or parents who lock kids in closets are written more or less to enrage the audience at the parents' actions. Why the different tone with this topic? I would suggest it's because of the inherent way society still treats infant-death-by-car. I also think it's a mistake to assume that parents can't just neglect one child, that it's all or nothing. There is also nothing to say that just because this is one act of abuse rather than a string of them that the parent is not making a "malicious" or "on-purpose" instance of abuse. There's no real reason to think that way. After all, if you have an infant, that might be the first time it was really neglected -- and that time could prove to be fatal and therefore the only time, as well. I think maybe something to think about is this. It's certainly on purpose most of the time. Did the person think, "I'm going to leave my infant in this car so it dies?" Probably not. Did the person think, "I don't want to fool with this baby right now?" Maybe. More probably so than not, especially if the person is jotting out for lunch with a friend. I agree we should stick to the "on purpose" language rather than the neglect/abuse language, since the purposefullness of the whole thing is what's at the heart of the conversation. But before we get rid of it completely, I think it's important to point out that I don't personally think people who neglect their kids don't want them, necessarily. I think they just don't want to put in the effort of being a good parent. Emotional abuse can be just as damaging to a child's future self as physical abuse. Adoptive parents can become neglectful/abusive when raising kids turns out not to be the sunny experience they thought it would bbe. I think there is a difference between wanting to actively murder your child (which I suspect is what you think we're saying) and wanting to actively ignore your child, which leads to accidents that the parent may not have intended per se, but were preventable but for their negligence. That's why some of these parents are charged with child endangerment -- whether intentional or not, they put their child in a dangerous situation that requires some kind of accountability. So maybe we should clarify first before we move forward: I'm not saying parents who leave their infants in hot cars are actively plotting murder. Is that what you think I'm saying? I'm saying it is a deliberately neglectful act and that claims to the contrary of "forgetting" are full of horse shit. I think that about sums my position up. Kids are not like baseball bats, sets of keys or door locks or coffee pots left on. There is a world of difference. There is so much of a parent's day, especially with an infant, that is highly, highly purpose driven. There are lots of steps to taking care of a baby, you really can't just sling it over your shoulder and go. So I find claims of forgetting you packed one along highly dubious. I don't think there has to be a pattern of abuse/neglect for a parent to have committed an act of abuse or neglect. Also, keep in mind that the demographic is usually very, very young. And this is why I think it's important to keep in mind that a pattern may not have time to emerge. As for the "you're not a parent, you couldn't know" thing, I'm glad you recognize I'm not throwing that out as a trump card in the conversation. But I also don't want to discount the lived knowledge and experience that comes with being a parent -- I'm not saying we're "better" informed. But it makes sense to ask a parent, rather than a non-parent. WMDkitty's equivocation of babies with locked doors is an absolutely absurd analogy, and I think most people with babies would immediately understand why in a way that non-parents might not. I don't really think there is a "more objective" way to look at this from one side or the other -- rather, combining the experience of people who deal with infants and the analysis of people looking at them from a distance is probably the best way. I don't think it's an either/or scenario. I like the phrase "leavers-of-children-in-cars". Human behavior is difficult to study, much more so when you're looking at such a heterogenous group of leavers-of-children-in-cars. I admit that up front. As I said before, I don't think you'd get a neglectful parent to openly and freely admit they were neglectful. I think your compilation is a wonderful idea (I'm glad you have the time for such an endeavor!) and I look forward to seeing the results. Till then, accept my "nuh-uh". I appreciate your concern about the phrasing of a woman's point of view. But let me put it to you this way. I can describe bleeding out the vagina as absolutely best I can. Unless you're a woman, you're not going to process some of it as closely. It has nothing to do with thinking one gender is better/smarter/etc than another. In the same way, I'm a white woman. I can *never* process what it's fully like to be a black man. I can empathize. But I can never fully "know." I don't find anything particularly problematic with that point of view -- it's not making quality judgments, rather it's acknowledging the reality of our experiences. Forgetfulness is one thing. I confess I have no idea how a woman can drive to work with her baby in the backseat of her car, worked all day, leave it in there and come out after work to find it dead. I will say that I would allow for the occasional complete and total screw up where this kind of thing just happens. But come on now -- don't you find something suspicious about a woman who goes to lunch for several hours with friends and "forgets" she has her infant in her car? Did none of her friends ask not even once "How's the new baby?" Did nothing jog her memory at all? You don't find the least bit of suspicion in that? I'm not asking you to accept hasty generalizations. I'm asking you to take my experience into consideration. Also arguing from a point of emotion doesn't always make something automatically wrong. i think one of the real issues here is, sure, people DO sometimes forget stuff they always do. *But* -- is a baby like forgetting to turn the coffee pot off before you go to work? I mention physical pain because there is no reminder quite like it. You keep mentioning daycare as if it's the majority excuse -- is that what you've found in most cases? What I've seen via my searches is something way more varied than that. Everything from a security guard leaving his toddler in the car and going inside to watch cartoons to a mom who went shopping, left her three year old in the parking lot for several hours and the kid managed to get out of its car seat, put the spare key in the ignition but couldn't turn it to the woman who drove to work and left her kid in the car all day long. The scenarios seemed at first glance to be way too varied to pinpoint to daycare -- but you've been looking at it longer than I have probably.
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Post by dantesvirgil on Jul 7, 2009 19:25:36 GMT -5
Wow, I'm a father does this mean I get to play middle of the road? My emotional and physical investment in an infant is considerably less than yours yours DV, but I've actually looked after an infant on a daily basis so I know what's actually involved unlike wmdkitty. The fact of the matter is that if you placed the child in the car it is extremely unlikely that you will forget that you put it there. There is simply too much planning and prep work involved. However, if you didn't place the child in the car, and the person who did is no longer in the vehicle when you stop and get out then it is possible. It is an extremely unlikely series of events, but it is possible. Oh, I wouldn't say your investment is less emotional per se. I don't think mothers know more than fathers do -- I think they understand leaky boobs in a way men unfortunately could never appreciate (lol), but I don't think that means we're necessarily more "attached" to our infants. I think you bring up a valid point about who packs the baby and its things in the car. It's one I meant to latch on to earlier but forgot -- does that make me a neglectful poster?! I also agree, though, that it's an extremely unlikely series of events. I would accept it happens rarely. I also think most of the time there is something else at work the caregiver in charge at the moment would rather not admit. I also admit I have no data for this.
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Post by wmdkitty on Jul 7, 2009 19:47:24 GMT -5
Keresm, you need to take off the "mommy" glasses, stop behaving like a child, and get your head out of your ass. It is POSSIBLE to FORGET A SLEEPING CHILD, when IT IS OUT OF YOUR SIGHT, like the BACK SEAT of the car. You're being an asshole, please knock it off. So are you. Do you really believe it's possible to forget you gave birth and have offspring because you're not immediately looking at it? Because that's what it sounds like you're arguing. Babies are not the same things as locked doors. Considering that it HAS HAPPENED, yes.
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Post by dantesvirgil on Jul 7, 2009 19:48:30 GMT -5
You're taking the excuse offered at the person's word. You find nothing suspicious at all about such a conclusion?
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Post by keresm on Jul 7, 2009 19:48:45 GMT -5
It is POSSIBLE to FORGET A SLEEPING CHILD, when IT IS OUT OF YOUR SIGHT, like the BACK SEAT of the car. Only if you are stupid, don't want the kid, or don't give a shit about the kid. If you'd forget something as important as a child, then you need to either get your head out of your ass, or your uterus removed.
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Post by keresm on Jul 7, 2009 19:50:36 GMT -5
You're taking the excuse offered at the person's word. You find nothing suspicious at all about such a conclusion? Frankly, I find it more unbelievable than I do the book of genesis, but I suppose some people would rather be gullible than question the sacred cow of mother love.
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Post by wmdkitty on Jul 7, 2009 19:51:29 GMT -5
It is POSSIBLE to FORGET A SLEEPING CHILD, when IT IS OUT OF YOUR SIGHT, like the BACK SEAT of the car. Only if you are stupid, don't want the kid, or don't give a shit about the kid. If you'd forget something as important as a child, then you need to either get your head out of your ass, or your uterus removed. You're a douchebag. Like I said earlier, just because -you- "could never forget your preshus widdle snowflake" doesn't mean it isn't possible. Anyone as hostile and antagonistic as you are shouldn't be allowed to breed, we don't -need- your kind.
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Post by keresm on Jul 7, 2009 19:59:02 GMT -5
You're a douchebag. Like I said earlier, just because -you- "could never forget your preshus widdle snowflake" doesn't mean it isn't possible. Anyone as hostile and antagonistic as you are shouldn't be allowed to breed, we don't -need- your kind. Sheesh, no wonder there is an entire thread pointing out how idiotic you are. You are a bigger hypocrite then the folks over at RR.
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