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Post by The_L on Aug 3, 2009 8:22:05 GMT -5
I've seen more than once the statement that the heart of an embryo starts beating 10 or 18 days after conception.
Most of these statements were on billboards that also compare abortion to murder, so i guess we all know how totally unbiased they are.
Yet people repeat this garbage. Even sane, non-fundie people.
IT. IS. INCORRECT.[/i]
The human heart starts beating about 4 weeks (28 days) after conception. I have had this drilled into my head from secular biology textbooks, and even from A Beka--the fundie textbook publisher who has a whole chapter on how evolution is of the devil, but still, apparently, has enough common sense to present accurate information about prenatal development.
(It was done in the form of "How You Came To Be," and included a ton of Bible verses to support the position that Abortion = Bad. But it still included statements like "After one week, you looked like a little ball of cells.")
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Post by szaleniec on Aug 3, 2009 9:30:54 GMT -5
Ah, my unfavourite pro-life fallacy. This basic biological function proves that fetuses need protecting from the evil hordes. It's always something evocative intended to sway people who aren't so versed in biology, like a beating heart, a pain response or the existence of anatomical structures that resemble those of an adult human. You'll never see a pro-lifer making an argument based on the diameter of the fetus's spleen, which would be just as relevant.
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Post by schizophonic on Aug 3, 2009 10:12:41 GMT -5
There are people without higher brain functions that have a beating heart.
Then again, I suppose those are the ones they most want to save.
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Post by Tiger on Aug 3, 2009 14:14:18 GMT -5
Only a month? I would have thought it'd be later.
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Post by Trevelyan on Aug 3, 2009 14:16:29 GMT -5
You know they say all this about beating hearts, pain response, etc, but they don't say one thing about the fact that a fetus at one point has a tail and gills. Of course, these would be inconvenient observations to their viewpoints so they can be safely ignored.
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Post by yojetak on Aug 3, 2009 14:24:37 GMT -5
I had a debate with my fundie cousin about abortion. She was "disappointed" that I dared to be pro-choice.
She said that "8 days after conception, the heart starts beating. If that doesn't prove life, I don't know what does."
I facepalmed pretty hard.
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Post by Tiger on Aug 3, 2009 15:34:15 GMT -5
I had a debate with my fundie cousin about abortion. She was "disappointed" that I dared to be pro-choice. She said that "8 days after conception, the heart starts beating. If that doesn't prove life, I don't know what does." I facepalmed pretty hard. Of course it's alive. The question is whether or not that life matters.
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Post by Dr. Waldorf X on Aug 3, 2009 15:34:57 GMT -5
I just wish these people would realize that legal abortions in clinics are a far better alternative than illegal back alley abortions that would happen if abortions were banned.
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Post by Caitshidhe on Aug 3, 2009 15:42:55 GMT -5
Except that it honestly doesn't occur to some of these people that if abortion were illegal, women would still seek (dangerous, possibly fatal, dirty) illegal abortions to terminate an unwanted pregnancy.
Or else they're the truly sickening variety who say, "Go ahead, let them get backalley abortions! THEY CAN DIE, TEH DIRTY SLUTS! SERVES THEM RIGHT!"
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Post by Tiger on Aug 3, 2009 15:44:43 GMT -5
I just wish these people would realize that legal abortions in clinics are a far better alternative than illegal back alley abortions that would happen if abortions were banned. But they're fine with women who have abortions getting killed in the process, and making it illegal probably would cut down on the number of abortions.
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Post by Dr. Waldorf X on Aug 3, 2009 15:56:24 GMT -5
I just wish these people would realize that legal abortions in clinics are a far better alternative than illegal back alley abortions that would happen if abortions were banned. But they're fine with women who have abortions getting killed in the process, and making it illegal probably would cut down on the number of abortions. And I find it quite sickening that they are so happy when someone dies in the process of having an abortion. As for it cutting down on them, it wouldn't eliminate them entirely. Just look at prohibition. Just because something is illegal doesn't mean it goes away.
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Post by Caitshidhe on Aug 3, 2009 16:02:08 GMT -5
Exactly. Look at, like you said, Prohibition. Look at the drug trade. Look at prostitution. Look at underage drinking. Making something illegal doesn't mean people will stop doing it--if that were the case, why would we even need prisons? People will do illegal things, full stop, end of story.
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Post by yojetak on Aug 3, 2009 16:06:46 GMT -5
Exactly. Look at, like you said, Prohibition. Look at the drug trade. Look at prostitution. Look at underage drinking. Making something illegal doesn't mean people will stop doing it--if that were the case, why would we even need prisons? People will do illegal things, full stop, end of story. Also, fuck prostitution not being legal. At least in places where it's legal, the women get medical care, fair pay, and decent working conditions. Legal but regulated is always the best route.
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Post by cagnazzo on Aug 3, 2009 16:11:54 GMT -5
I never knew when it happened, though I knew it was far later than a few days. Because if you look at embryology for the first while, it's... pretty alien. I never bothered to look it up though, because it's irrelevant to basically everything.Unless heartbeat=humanity. Actually, I like this new definition of humanity. Octopodes are three times the human I'll ever be!I feel a bit weird because I just unsimplified someone's argument and it's still drastically simplified. That's kind of sad to me.
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Post by yojetak on Aug 3, 2009 16:22:43 GMT -5
Thunderf00t had a great reply to this line of reasoning. I forget the actual quote so I'll paraphrase.
"If a heartbeat is the de-facto sign of life at that early in pregnancy, what happens when the baby develops without a head (which can happen)? Is it still alive since it has a heartbeat? If not, at what point did it stop being alive? It still has the heartbeat."
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