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Post by valsa on Apr 12, 2010 4:56:33 GMT -5
I was always interested in the fact that, since pre-Tree of Knowledge Adam and Eve had no concept of good and evil, how could they possibly be expected to know that disobeying God was, you know, bad?
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Post by John E on Apr 12, 2010 8:57:58 GMT -5
Yes, but that's not the point. The point is that God wants us to have the free will to do good things because we want to, which means we must have the choice to do bad things. [...] Exactly. He wanted humanity to have free will to do good and evil, but he needed them to make that choice themselves, free will and all that. Okay, but God, being all knowing and all powerful, when he created Adam and Eve, chose exactly where to put each and every molecule, atom and subatomic particle. He created them EXACTLY the way he wanted them, and knew EXACTLY what the consequences of that decision were, exactly what choices they, and all of humanity for the rest of time, would make. He could have moved an atom here or there to change the outcome but he didn't. On one hand, that defeats the idea of free will. God chose all of our decisions, even our littlest, most insignificant ones, long ago when he created the universe and humankind just so. On the other hand, it means that God could have created us with the free will to chose good or evil, but such that we would all chose good. But he didn't. He created us intentionally, to make exactly the choices we make. As such, every evil thing that anybody has ever done or ever will do is exactly the choice God wanted them to make. The alternative is that God is not all powerful and all knowing. P.S. For that matter, if God wanted Adam and Eve to eat the fruit, why'd he get mad at them for it?
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ytdn
New Member
Posts: 35
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Post by ytdn on Apr 12, 2010 11:18:08 GMT -5
Yes, but that's not the point. The point is that God wants us to have the free will to do good things because we want to, which means we must have the choice to do bad things. [...] Exactly. He wanted humanity to have free will to do good and evil, but he needed them to make that choice themselves, free will and all that. Okay, but God, being all knowing and all powerful, when he created Adam and Eve, chose exactly where to put each and every molecule, atom and subatomic particle. He created them EXACTLY the way he wanted them, and knew EXACTLY what the consequences of that decision were, exactly what choices they, and all of humanity for the rest of time, would make. He could have moved an atom here or there to change the outcome but he didn't. On one hand, that defeats the idea of free will. God chose all of our decisions, even our littlest, most insignificant ones, long ago when he created the universe and humankind just so. On the other hand, it means that God could have created us with the free will to chose good or evil, but such that we would all chose good. But he didn't. He created us intentionally, to make exactly the choices we make. As such, every evil thing that anybody has ever done or ever will do is exactly the choice God wanted them to make. The alternative is that God is not all powerful and all knowing. P.S. For that matter, if God wanted Adam and Eve to eat the fruit, why'd he get mad at them for it? Personally, I don't believe in predestination or God knowing the future, so free will is perfectly reasonable. And God getting pissy at Adam and Eve for eating the fruit? That's Old Testament God for you. He was kind of a dick. As I said, I'm not a very good Catholic. My beliefs are a combination of stuff I learnt at school and stuff I may have made up. Sorry.
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Post by Vene on Apr 12, 2010 12:24:54 GMT -5
Yes, but that's not the point. The point is that God wants us to have the free will to do good things because we want to, which means we must have the choice to do bad things. This still doesn't work, because we're coerced to do good things. Threatening eternal punishment makes doing anything in opposition to his will an act of insanity (assuming existence, naturally). This is like saying that I'm free to drive on the wrong side of the road on a busy highway. Sure, I could technically do it, but I'd have to be mad to think it's a valid choice. So, even allowing that he wants us to do good as a matter of choice, he makes it so that doing evil is an unacceptable choice to anybody with the smallest sense of self-preservation.
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Post by tolpuddlemartyr on Apr 12, 2010 16:12:03 GMT -5
Okay, but God, being all knowing and all powerful, when he created Adam and Eve, chose exactly where to put each and every molecule, atom and subatomic particle. He created them EXACTLY the way he wanted them, and knew EXACTLY what the consequences of that decision were, exactly what choices they, and all of humanity for the rest of time, would make. He could have moved an atom here or there to change the outcome but he didn't. On one hand, that defeats the idea of free will. God chose all of our decisions, even our littlest, most insignificant ones, long ago when he created the universe and humankind just so. On the other hand, it means that God could have created us with the free will to chose good or evil, but such that we would all chose good. But he didn't. He created us intentionally, to make exactly the choices we make. As such, every evil thing that anybody has ever done or ever will do is exactly the choice God wanted them to make. The alternative is that God is not all powerful and all knowing. P.S. For that matter, if God wanted Adam and Eve to eat the fruit, why'd he get mad at them for it? I think that if you judge the actions of Yahweh/Elohim in the bible as opposed to what he says it's pretty clear that he's not omnipotent (can't stop Iron Chariots), he has to find out what was going on in Sodom and Gomorrah ("that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me.") so he's not omniscience. As for omnibenevolent, well - if Yahweh's that then so is Jason Voorhees. Given that, could he still be said to have a reasonable knowledge of what might take place if he put the fruit in the garden? Sure, Adam and Eve were total childlike innocents with no knowledge of good and evil. God effectively told them to not do anything naughty and then spanked them for it only after they gained the ability to form such a judgement post eating the fruit which gave them knowledge of good and evil. Conclusion, Yahweh was fucking with them! Like he does with most of the other characters in that work of fiction. That to me makes perfect sense in the context of the bible as a story.
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Post by John E on Apr 12, 2010 22:19:31 GMT -5
Personally, I don't believe in predestination or God knowing the future, so free will is perfectly reasonable. That does resolve some of the issues. Don't be sorry. Most of us here are pretty unorthodox. My own beliefs are a bit of a hodgepodge as well.
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Post by Dragon Zachski on Apr 12, 2010 23:28:23 GMT -5
God, apparently, was the first to practice a form of blanket training.
Only instead of hitting them on the wrist, he condemned them to die and said he'd forgive them 4000 years later.
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NonProphet
Junior Member
Living on Caffeine & Henna
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Post by NonProphet on Apr 13, 2010 19:33:30 GMT -5
I think that if you judge the actions of Yahweh/Elohim in the bible as opposed to what he says it's pretty clear that he's not omnipotent (can't stop Iron Chariots), he has to find out what was going on in Sodom and Gomorrah ("that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me.") so he's not omniscience. As for omnibenevolent, well - if Yahweh's that then so is Jason Voorhees. Agreed. I've read the Christian Bible (in its various versions) many, many times; I have yet to figure out how people got the idea that the Abrahamic God is all-knowing, all-powerful and perfectly benevolent. Who started that idea, and why do people believe it when it's contradicted in their own holy book?
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Post by dasfuchs on Apr 13, 2010 21:37:10 GMT -5
I think that if you judge the actions of Yahweh/Elohim in the bible as opposed to what he says it's pretty clear that he's not omnipotent (can't stop Iron Chariots), he has to find out what was going on in Sodom and Gomorrah ("that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me.") so he's not omniscience. As for omnibenevolent, well - if Yahweh's that then so is Jason Voorhees. Agreed. I've read the Christian Bible (in its various versions) many, many times; I have yet to figure out how people got the idea that the Abrahamic God is all-knowing, all-powerful and perfectly benevolent. Who started that idea, and why do people believe it when it's contradicted in their own holy book? All powerfull Revelation 19:6 Matthew 19:26 All knowing Samuel 2:3 Matthew 6:8 Psalm 139:1-4 Hebrews 4:13 To name a few
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Post by davedan on Apr 13, 2010 22:06:46 GMT -5
How do they reconcile all powerful with defeated by iron chariots.
How do they reconcile all knowing with not smart enough to put the tree of knowledge of good and evil somewhere other than the Garden of Eden if he didn't want Adam and Eve to eat it. I mean that doesn't even take a lot of prescience.
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Post by Admiral Lithp on Apr 13, 2010 23:41:49 GMT -5
The first thing, they say that the believers' faith wasn't such that God would intervene further. For the latter, they just don't seem to understand the concept that God's plan is fucking retarded.
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Post by dasfuchs on Apr 14, 2010 1:17:58 GMT -5
How do they reconcile all powerful with defeated by iron chariots. How do they reconcile all knowing with not smart enough to put the tree of knowledge of good and evil somewhere other than the Garden of Eden if he didn't want Adam and Eve to eat it. I mean that doesn't even take a lot of prescience. See, these are things you ask when you think about the issue beyond "duh, there is a god". This is the same stuff i used to ask my church leaders and never got an answer, just a long winded shpeil about how they don't want to smother growing minds, etc. The more answers they didn't give, the more answers I got that maybe, just maybe, there is no god and all of this was a crock people followed to reconcile the whole conscious life and death thing
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Post by Haseen on Apr 14, 2010 4:07:15 GMT -5
Limitations are always explained by "God works in mysterious ways".
(in Mooninite voice) Your feeble earth minds can't possibly comprehend the reasons our god does what he does. He is just too great for you to wrap your minds around, so you might as well accept that God wants you to give me all your stuff. If you don't, he will unleash his ultimate attack. It may take a while, but just you wait for it! It may not hit you, but it'll hit *someone*!
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Post by dasfuchs on Apr 14, 2010 11:30:07 GMT -5
*flips the bird* Can you see this Denver, I'm doing it as hard as I can. And for twenty nine cents more you can Super Size that.
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NonProphet
Junior Member
Living on Caffeine & Henna
Posts: 56
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Post by NonProphet on Apr 16, 2010 23:22:04 GMT -5
(...)God's plan is fucking retarded. I lol'd. Thanks for that.
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