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Post by m52nickerson on Jan 7, 2011 17:29:28 GMT -5
How does that help us understand anything better? I doesn't. Then again who said that was the point. The point of faith does not have to be one of understanding the world around you. Faith can just be a means to find internal peace and comfort. Yes science allows us to find the rules by which the universe works. It does not, nor can not answer why those are the rules. Why does the universe work the way it does. That is a different question on how does the universe work. What does adding God change, for some people a lot. Many people lean on their faith. I don't think he was going to scientific answers to questions. What would you expect the leader of a faith do. Announce to all their faith is wrong? How does the Pope saying that God created the universe through the Bid Bang keep people from trying to find out how God did it?
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Post by Smurfette Principle on Jan 7, 2011 19:20:18 GMT -5
I can't see this as a bad thing. The Pope could have come out and said that the Big Bang was BS and the universe is only 6000 years old. Instead he is trying to match religious beliefs with science, while not arguing that science is wrong. I agree. I have much the same opinion (see "Deism"), and I see no reason to say that science and religion are mutually exclusive.
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Post by Admiral Lithp on Jan 7, 2011 20:37:31 GMT -5
Bah, you people are way too wordy. Here's all I have to say in the matter:
How is God a scientific concept?
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Post by Smurfette Principle on Jan 7, 2011 21:31:53 GMT -5
Bah, you people are way too wordy. Here's all I have to say in the matter: How is God a scientific concept? Well, more an explanation (like "God of the Gaps"), but I see your point. Still, this is progress, right?
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Post by tolpuddlemartyr on Jan 7, 2011 21:56:31 GMT -5
The mainstream Churches have to say stuff like this to remain mainstream, taking the fundie line that it all started six thousand years ago with two naked people, an apple and a snake is likely to frighten off most people with at least a high school level of education.
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Post by MaybeNever on Jan 7, 2011 22:26:34 GMT -5
A substantial majority of Americans have a high school level of education or better, and almost half of Americans believe in something very close to YEC.
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Post by Admiral Lithp on Jan 7, 2011 23:32:00 GMT -5
Bah, you people are way too wordy. Here's all I have to say in the matter: How is God a scientific concept? Well, more an explanation (like "God of the Gaps"), but I see your point. Still, this is progress, right? Oh, absolutely. I mean, would you rather they treat the Big Bang like they do condoms? The more shit they try to use, rather than denounce (condoms), the better. I can live with them getting religion in my science, if they absolutely must. Yes. MY science. Fuck you.
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Post by Amaranth on Jan 7, 2011 23:34:20 GMT -5
A substantial majority of Americans have a high school level of education or better, and almost half of Americans believe in something very close to YEC. Probably doesn't hurt that those who don't often play to their definitions. This "no transitional fossils" crap shouldn't be allowed to stand. I think they must mean fossils that suddenly shapeshift into a new form after millions of years or something. The missing link? Hundreds of 'em. Evolution can't be proven? We can observe it in laboratories.
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Post by Mlle Antéchrist on Jan 7, 2011 23:48:50 GMT -5
I can't see this as a bad thing. The Pope could have come out and said that the Big Bang was BS and the universe is only 6000 years old. Instead he is trying to match religious beliefs with science, while not arguing that science is wrong. I agree. I have much the same opinion (see "Deism"), and I see no reason to say that science and religion are mutually exclusive. Problem is, the Pope is still acting as if he has a direct line to god, and can just know that the big bang was supernatural in origin. It's one thing to state that you believe god has something to do with it, but he's not just expressing his person beliefs, he's saying this as if it's absolute fact. Also, the stuff about scientific theories without religion being mind-limiting is insulting towards naturalists.
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Post by Napoleon the Clown on Jan 8, 2011 4:02:09 GMT -5
The thing you need to keep in mind about the Pope is that either A: he believes his own words or B: he realizes that if he wants to keep his source of income he needs to make the Church sound like it actually has a part in things.
But acknowledging the universe got a start in any way other than God willing it to happen (whether it be *poof* everything exists or triggering a chain reaction) he would be admitting that God didn't start it all. Which calls into question the very nature of God.
His words are just giving a why (philosophically) everything started, not how.
I honestly don't give a shit what people think happens to your consciousness after death. Or what they think set events into motion to get this universe of ours into its current state. Hell, the belief that the Earth is 6,000 years old is silly as all fuck, but it's inconsequential compared to the way the person treats others.
Expecting him to say that God had no hand in the universe's creation is akin to expecting the CEO of a homeopathy company to admit to the world that his product doesn't work as well as real medicine. Either he truly believes what he says or he has a vested interest in maintaining the lie.
Personally, I believe the Pope really does believe in the God of the Bible and that he believes he is in the "best" Church. Whether he believes everything in Catholic canon, I don't know.
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Post by Julian on Jan 8, 2011 6:09:15 GMT -5
How does that help us understand anything better? I doesn't. Then again who said that was the point. The point of faith does not have to be one of understanding the world around you. Faith can just be a means to find internal peace and comfort. Yes science allows us to find the rules by which the universe works. It does not, nor can not answer why those are the rules. Why does the universe work the way it does. That is a different question on how does the universe work. What does adding God change, for some people a lot. Many people lean on their faith. I don't think he was going to scientific answers to questions. What would you expect the leader of a faith do. Announce to all their faith is wrong? How does the Pope saying that God created the universe through the Bid Bang keep people from trying to find out how God did it? Summarising your replies. 1/. Crutch. 2/. Misconception on your part. A complete scientific theory does explain why as well as how. Newton quantified gravity (how and how much). Einstein's special theory of relativity went a great deal further to explain why. The "science doesn't answer why" canard is generally forwarded by idiots and/or philosophers who like to pretend that science cannot address questions that start with why? Why does rain fall? Why does the sun rise? Science answers these questions - once upon a time religious fuckwits siad God was the answer, then mercifully we worked out a whole pile of stuff about the hydrological cycle, and gravity, and elliptical orbits and sanity and reality prevailed. People who like to think science can't answer why, aren't remotely interested in finding out why, and often it's because they just want to pretend there's room for their idiocy. 3/. CRUTCH! 4/. No shit, but a red herring. He's trying to pretend the church has factual relevance based in reality. It does not. 5/. Oh, the argument from intellectual dishonesty. I'm wrong, but I have a selfish vested interest in remaining wrong, so I will try to remain as wrong as I possibly can. Oh dude! How could you even go there?
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Post by The_L on Jan 8, 2011 7:59:43 GMT -5
Julian, it's great that you're an atheist and all, but for you to loudly proclaim that we theists are all automatically wrong/delusional isn't really fair. Some of us have had what we perceive to have been direct contact with the Divine. To call someone else's meaningful spiritual experience "delusion" or "hallucination" or whatever is extremely rude, and shows a complete lack of respect for the other person's perspective.
The Pope is Catholic. As such, he believes in the existence of a god (specifically, the God of the Bible). To insist that he, the leader if a world religion, is suddenly going to say "There is no god" is as insane as certain fundies' insistence that creation "science" will one day be the only thing taught in American schools.
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Post by m52nickerson on Jan 8, 2011 11:43:43 GMT -5
Summarising your replies. 1/. Crutch. 2/. Misconception on your part. A complete scientific theory does explain why as well as how. Newton quantified gravity (how and how much). Einstein's special theory of relativity went a great deal further to explain why. The "science doesn't answer why" canard is generally forwarded by idiots and/or philosophers who like to pretend that science cannot address questions that start with why? Why does rain fall? Why does the sun rise? Science answers these questions - once upon a time religious fuckwits siad God was the answer, then mercifully we worked out a whole pile of stuff about the hydrological cycle, and gravity, and elliptical orbits and sanity and reality prevailed. People who like to think science can't answer why, aren't remotely interested in finding out why, and often it's because they just want to pretend there's room for their idiocy. 3/. CRUTCH! 4/. No shit, but a red herring. He's trying to pretend the church has factual relevance based in reality. It does not. 5/. Oh, the argument from intellectual dishonesty. I'm wrong, but I have a selfish vested interest in remaining wrong, so I will try to remain as wrong as I possibly can. Oh dude! How could you even go there? For 1 and 3. So what. Everyone, even you needs a crutch sometimes. It may not be faith for some, but they still need something to lean on. 2. Your looking at the wrong "why". Yes science explains why things are attracted to each other. It most likely answer why there is gravity at all in the near future. The "why" I'm talking about asks why those reasons are what they are. 4. The fact that people lean on their faith and find comfort in it is relevant and reality. 5. It would only be dishonest if the Pope does not believe in God.
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Post by malicious_bloke on Jan 8, 2011 12:09:57 GMT -5
Hell, the belief that the Earth is 6,000 years old is silly as all fuck, but it's inconsequential compared to the way the person treats others Disagree. If someone is so totally indoctrinated that they can accept this sort of nonsense foisted on them by religious authorities over plainly observable reality, then how do you think that same person would react when said religious authorities instruct them to take other - more directly harmful - courses of action. If you have enough control to make people deny reality in favour of your version, it is VERY easy to make them obey whatever murderous bullshit you may have planned.
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Post by JonathanE on Jan 8, 2011 12:50:51 GMT -5
Julian, it's great that you're an atheist and all, but for you to loudly proclaim that we theists are all automatically wrong/delusional isn't really fair. Some of us have had what we perceive to have been direct contact with the Divine. To call someone else's meaningful spiritual experience "delusion" or "hallucination" or whatever is extremely rude, and shows a complete lack of respect for the other person's perspective. The Pope is Catholic. As such, he believes in the existence of a god (specifically, the God of the Bible). To insist that he, the leader if a world religion, is suddenly going to say "There is no god" is as insane as certain fundies' insistence that creation "science" will one day be the only thing taught in American schools. Actually, he didn't say that theists were delusion or suffered from hallucinations. He called religion a crutch, which it is. I am an atheist, and I really don't care too much about what others believe regarding diety. My problem with belief in diety is when that belief infringes upon me and mine. Tax exemption for religions, in my opinion, could be seen as a violation of the establishment clause of the U.S. constitution. At least an argument could be made to that effect. Religion is a net drain on finite human resources. Yes, some good things come out of religion. People get a sense of well being, a feeling of community, even some actual charity work is done. However, a sense of well-being can be gained by smoking weed, the sense of community can be gotten through actual volunteerism in your community, without regard to religion, as can charity work and donations. There is no "net gain" with religion. On the negative side, religion promotes intolerance, tribalism, diversion of limited resources, close-mindedness; not universally, mind, but, I would argue, these negatives far outweigh the positives in society. The net result of these negative include wars and genocide, amongst other horrific things. Religions do these things AND get tax exemptions! The Pope's opinion regarding the "big bang" or evolution is about as relevant as Mickey Mouse's, in the grand scheme of things, and just about as valuable. I am sorry if this offends anyone's sensibilities, but I speak from my own 64 years of observing life.
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