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Post by Julian on Jan 10, 2011 3:41:49 GMT -5
One more reason faith should stay the hell out of the way one looks at reality, then, and whosoever speaks of their faith should be aware and make it aware that they are not speaking of reality. Do you think that is the case with the Pope? The Popes faith is just as much reality are your lack of it. If he sees Gods handy work in the world around him, that is just a real as just seeing something else. No idiot! The Pope's faith may SEEM to be reality to him (I'd frankly be more than a little surprised), but it is NOT reality, that would be his PERCEPTION of reality! It is no more valid, than that of other "infallible" mormon prophets who swore last century that there were cities of people on the moon... Reality is reality, it doesn't give a shit what you happen to think!
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Post by Julian on Jan 10, 2011 3:36:30 GMT -5
Nope, that totally wasn't needlessly antagonistic or rude. Totally not something an asshole would do. Nuh-uh. Care to explain why that clarifcation was needless?
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Post by Julian on Jan 10, 2011 3:34:44 GMT -5
I'm aware of what Lord Kelvin meant. It still stands that if you take his word another way they can hold true. FUCKING WHAT THE FUCKING FUCK? So you're saying you KNEW you were taking it entirely out of context before you took it entirely out of context? Nice work! So are you actually starting to be a little more honest, or was that quoted statement actually yet another lie you failed to realise the ramifications of?
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Post by Julian on Jan 10, 2011 3:27:47 GMT -5
The Pope's opinion regarding the "big bang" or evolution is about as relevant as Mickey Mouse's, in the grand scheme of things, and just about as valuable. I am sorry if this offends anyone's sensibilities, but I speak from my own 64 years of observing life. Tax free Mickey!!! The pope probably does need a pair of white gloves and big ears to add a bit more popular relevance since he's hell bent on jazzing things up on one hand, as he's winding the clock back on official doctrine with the other... AND A ROOT!
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Post by Julian on Jan 10, 2011 3:18:57 GMT -5
The Pope is Catholic. As such, he believes in the existence of a god (specifically, the God of the Bible). To insist that he, the leader if a world religion, is suddenly going to say "There is no god" is as insane as certain fundies' insistence that creation "science" will one day be the only thing taught in American schools. Oh dear... And who's expecting him to do this? That kind of accountability and integrity never sits with religious leaders. The occasional CEO or politician yes, religious leaders no - even (or particularly) the obvious conmen...
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Post by Julian on Jan 10, 2011 3:11:29 GMT -5
Summarising your replies. 1/. Crutch. 2/. Misconception on your part. A complete scientific theory does explain why as well as how. Newton quantified gravity (how and how much). Einstein's special theory of relativity went a great deal further to explain why. The "science doesn't answer why" canard is generally forwarded by idiots and/or philosophers who like to pretend that science cannot address questions that start with why? Why does rain fall? Why does the sun rise? Science answers these questions - once upon a time religious fuckwits siad God was the answer, then mercifully we worked out a whole pile of stuff about the hydrological cycle, and gravity, and elliptical orbits and sanity and reality prevailed. People who like to think science can't answer why, aren't remotely interested in finding out why, and often it's because they just want to pretend there's room for their idiocy. 3/. CRUTCH! 4/. No shit, but a red herring. He's trying to pretend the church has factual relevance based in reality. It does not. 5/. Oh, the argument from intellectual dishonesty. I'm wrong, but I have a selfish vested interest in remaining wrong, so I will try to remain as wrong as I possibly can. Oh dude! How could you even go there? For 1 and 3. So what. Everyone, even you needs a crutch sometimes. It may not be faith for some, but they still need something to lean on. 2. Your looking at the wrong "why". Yes science explains why things are attracted to each other. It most likely answer why there is gravity at all in the near future. The "why" I'm talking about asks why those reasons are what they are. 4. The fact that people lean on their faith and find comfort in it is relevant and reality. 5. It would only be dishonest if the Pope does not believe in God. No, intellectual dishonesty can include willful ignorance, a lack of desire to follow through to the logical conclusions, or a stack of other fallacies, canards and logical and reasoning failures. He may choose to reconcile his God with a 13.7 billion year old universe, BUT he is NOT being intellectually honest with himself, as opposed to being disingenuous with the public. Also, you missed out the obvious one, of the Pope could be being dishonest full stop if he does not believe the big bang is the most likely explanation for the beginning of what we know as the universe. Frankly, I am not remotely surprised I am needing to explain intellectual dishonesty to you! You asked what harm there was. It was pointed out to you that the church has habitually done this with science in order to maintain its relevance, and some of the enormous harms the church has perpetuated in the last few years alone were raised, and these have either been direct harms, condoning direct harms, or indirect harms being perpetrated as a consequence of the ignorance and/or lies of the church. There is no direct harm in saying this. There is however the massive problem that a directly and indirectly powerful institution is trying to perpetuate and/or strengthen its power base through blatant intellectual dishonesty! Thank you for proving my point.
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Post by Julian on Jan 10, 2011 2:55:40 GMT -5
Julian, it's great that you're an atheist and all, but for you to loudly proclaim that we theists are all automatically wrong/delusional isn't really fair. Some of us have had what we perceive to have been direct contact with the Divine. To call someone else's meaningful spiritual experience "delusion" or "hallucination" or whatever is extremely rude, and shows a complete lack of respect for the other person's perspective indoctrination, misattribution of causality, delusion, hallucination or psychotic episode. PARTIALLY FIXED!
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Post by Julian on Jan 10, 2011 2:50:27 GMT -5
Granted, (Japanese vending machines aside) the only ones left that you can afford are from goatse...
I wish cluebats were semi-automatic.
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Post by Julian on Jan 8, 2011 9:00:51 GMT -5
It's a tax rort, a tax break, tax exemption, or a tax waiver from government cronyism, it's not tax relief!
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Post by Julian on Jan 8, 2011 8:58:59 GMT -5
Republican buzzwords go deeper than that too. One classic example is "tax relief". It appears relatively straightforward, but immediately creates the powerful association that tax is painful, or an infliction, (and those poor long suffering rich people - yeh right) therefore anyone who is not for it is obviously a complete asshole, even though it's actually tax-cuts for the rich, and fiscally irresponsible, both in the long and short terms for pretty much everyone - the super rich included.
They then rub salt in the wound they just created by alleging that the taxes are being misspent.
They're a pack of Machiavellian cunts!
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Post by Julian on Jan 8, 2011 7:48:15 GMT -5
Granted, people anonymous use it to punch 'yourself' in the face over TCP/IP.
I wish we had the nanotechnology ready to build a space elevator, and we could tell the mormons it goes to Kolob instead of flinging them off into space.
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Post by Julian on Jan 8, 2011 6:42:07 GMT -5
(I wonder if BO'R thinks the moon is a light source set in the firmament... That certainly wouldn't explain the tides.)
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Post by Julian on Jan 8, 2011 6:40:16 GMT -5
"Maybe it’s Thor up on Mount Olympus who’s making the tides go in and out." Thor lives on Mt Olympus now? Or is he just visiting his neighbours? Zeus needed to borrow Mjollnir to fix some loose tiles, and Thor wanted to attend a workshop on lightning bolts... But yes. Well the bible says that God is the one true God etc....Yes, I know, but I have it on good authority that Thor wrote that. What the hell, why would he?Well it was a bit of prank that got out of hand, and he basically dick-rolled this insignificant diety no one but a handful of oppressed tribesmen had ever heard of, and he's never wanted to clear it up because he doesn't want to be bothered by billions of petty, insignificant, self-important, clamouring, self-obsessed apes.
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Post by Julian on Jan 8, 2011 6:31:55 GMT -5
It would be kinda awesome if it DID run on sunshine and farts tho. Like in North Korea?
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Post by Julian on Jan 8, 2011 6:30:16 GMT -5
How so? Do you really think the political will of the Israeli people would be quite so right wing if there wasn't masses of intolerance, hatred and contempt, large amounts of which had been stirred up by inaccurate reporting, spin, bias and propaganda?
I'm sure that the inhumane oppression and subjection of the Palestinian people does far more damage to the situation on their side, than say school yard rumours, anecdote, anti-semetic texts recycled from Europe pre 1940, and having your friends, families, neighbours murdered, and being denied basic rights and humane living conditions can and probably should stir up hatred (of the injustice at the very, very least), but don't you think if there was mutual respect and understanding instead of hatred, some kind of accord would be possible?
Also, I didn't say hatred was the cause of the problem, it certainly is one of the side effects though, and what I said it was one of the blockers to the peace process.
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