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Post by Admiral Lithp on Oct 12, 2011 20:28:16 GMT -5
A thread got derailed with a discussion I found far more interesting:
Really, I think the worst case scenario would have been if Kubota wasn't the bad guy, & Elan was actually practicing subterfuge. He blew the dust into the ocean before Elan confirmed it for him, so there would be no way to resurrect him. Beyond that, I think V pretty much had that situation down, from a rational standpoint. As far as morality goes, that's a whole 'nother problem.
Historically, it really does seem to work for him. What's less likely to happen:
1. One of those Black Dragons he killed has an unrelated friend who seeks revenge. 2. The mother Black Dragon stopped being a bitch long enough for her & V to work something out.
The only time violence didn't work was when he attacked Xykon, & he seemed to have a pretty good chance until the Soul Splice wore off. Also, it wasn't V's usual calculated violence, he was operating under the assumption that he was invincible.
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Post by Vene on Oct 13, 2011 11:33:34 GMT -5
Zz'dtri, V has only successfully thwarted him when s/he uses non-kaboomy measures, such as the lawyers early in the strip and recently by dominating the filthy kobold, Yukyuk. It also failed pretty badly when shopping for components after the dragon incident (which also could have been handled without damnation through a indirect application of power). Oh, and the gnome druid, Leafy, V's usual approach was pretty failtacular.
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Post by Napoleon the Clown on Oct 13, 2011 16:23:34 GMT -5
Really, V is an excellent example of how the most dangerous wizards aren't the ones that can blow shit up but the ones that can do horrible, horrible things to the weak-willed or use explodey powers of low levels creatively. Spell Resistance is awesome against stuff like Disintegrate but not so useful against rocks being dumped on your head. Or, in this case, an ally getting mind-controlled into shooting you until your HP get dangerously low.
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Post by SCarpelan on Oct 13, 2011 17:45:35 GMT -5
Really, I think the worst case scenario would have been if Kubota wasn't the bad guy, & Elan was actually practicing subterfuge. He blew the dust into the ocean before Elan confirmed it for him, so there would be no way to resurrect him. Beyond that, I think V pretty much had that situation down, from a rational standpoint. As far as morality goes, that's a whole 'nother problem. For all V knew Elan could have been mistaken an innocent guy for a villain but (s)he decided to trust his interpretation of the situation. I repeat: V acted on the assumption that Elan's interpretation was correct. (S)he didn't bother to actually investigate the situation him/herself since (s)he was too eager to get back to researching the spell to contact Durkon and Haley. V just trusted that (s)he could deal with any consequences with using his/her magical powers. Yeah, using the most direct and powerful spells available had worked for V until the soul splice thing. That's why (s)he never stopped to consider that sometimes there might be a better way and escalating the magical power use in any given situation isn't always the answer. The way V dealt with ZZ'dtri shows that (s)he has learned that the most direct approach isn't always the best.
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Post by Admiral Lithp on Oct 14, 2011 2:25:03 GMT -5
I haven't gotten that far yet, though I was going to say that if he'd just blown up Zz'ditri to begin with, he wouldn't have to deal with this right now.
Also, the reason he trusted Elan is because, by this point, Elan has proven to be trustworthy so long as Genre Savvyness is involved.
True, I forgot that V had the option of contacting his old teacher. But assuming he had to handle the situation himself, then he really had no other option.
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Post by Vene on Oct 14, 2011 9:23:15 GMT -5
I haven't gotten that far yet, though I was going to say that if he'd just blown up Zz'ditri to begin with, he wouldn't have to deal with this right now. V tried, spell resistance won. Familicide was unnecessary, that particular black dragon even said she had nobody left.
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Post by Admiral Lithp on Oct 14, 2011 15:49:13 GMT -5
THRICE DAMNED SPELL RESISTANCE!
Fair enough.
No close relations. After everything that happened, I can understand V not wanting to take chances.
I'm also a little confused as to how Color Coded For Your Convenience plays into this. Are all black dragons in OotS considered evil, or what?
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Post by Vene on Oct 14, 2011 16:11:43 GMT -5
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Post by Admiral Lithp on Oct 14, 2011 16:21:18 GMT -5
Well, the thing is, I don't understand how destroying an evil thing is being evil yourself, regardless of whether or not you get a murderboner from it.
In that comic, V gives both reasons as justification for his actions. I would say that both are applicable. V's actions made sense to some level, but at the same time, he was clearly getting drunk on power.
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Post by Vene on Oct 14, 2011 16:33:42 GMT -5
Well, the thing is, I don't understand how destroying an evil thing is being evil yourself, regardless of whether or not you get a murderboner from it. Because you are a simple, little man.
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Post by Admiral Lithp on Oct 14, 2011 17:03:05 GMT -5
Well, the thing is, I don't understand how destroying an evil thing is being evil yourself, regardless of whether or not you get a murderboner from it. Because you are a simple, little man. Oh, I've heard that "it's the reason you're doing it" thing before. I just don't buy it. To do evil implies that you're doing something that's wrong. Destroying a chaotic evil monster is essentially a victimless crime.
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Post by Napoleon the Clown on Oct 15, 2011 2:50:35 GMT -5
So genocide is just fine so long as the creatures in question are "evil"?
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Post by Admiral Lithp on Oct 15, 2011 3:18:03 GMT -5
Yes.
That's the idea of the hero: Eliminating evil.
And I don't understand why you're putting "evil" in quotes. This is a world that has clear-cut morality lines. At least, I don't think he's put anything in to subvert that.
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Post by davedan on Oct 15, 2011 8:49:48 GMT -5
I was pretty sure there was a subversion of the clear cut morality lines. For instance you have the Paladin chick (whatever her name was) that clearly became evil. There is the continuing storyline about Red-cloak or whatever his name is wanting to set up things to be good for the goblins and there was the whole thing about the Black Dragon being upset because he killed her son. I thought there was a fairly clear subversion of the whole Good/Evil thing. Plus the monster in the dark who would appear to be a good despite clearly being some sort of terrible monster.
Anyway I love the order of the stick. One thing that bothers me though is at the beginning Varsuvius was clearly meant to be a woman, for instance there is the panel where V and Haley are sharing a room and the boys are listening at the door because it sounds like they are showing each other their tits.
It was really as the story progressed the idea of turning V androgynous seemed to take hold.
Anyway I love the order of the stick.
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Post by askold on Oct 15, 2011 8:53:49 GMT -5
Yes. That's the idea of the hero: Eliminating evil. And I don't understand why you're putting "evil" in quotes. This is a world that has clear-cut morality lines. At least, I don't think he's put anything in to subvert that. Well it is more like people in the comic assume that the world has clear-cut morality lines. For example some of the hobgoblins did seem like decent people despite being members of "always-chaotic-evil" race. (The Drizzt-clone and buddies where evil, true.) But with Redcloak and others we have seen that not all of the "monsters" are evil. With the dragon-genocide V killed a large percentage of a species, some of whom might have been good or neutral.
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