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Post by Shane for Wax on Nov 4, 2011 19:14:52 GMT -5
There's no point in you saying that because it's only part of the point. As Zachski notes, it's not effective communication if only a few people get it. Another thing, I don't get this ridiculous no compromise attitude. I don't see how X's lack of comfort automatically trumps Y's. Surely X & Y can come to an agreement that will satisfy both of them. And if X is saying, "It's not about YOU, it's all about ME!" then fuck X. X is a douche. Yes but a lot of the time these discussions comes up Y is saying 'No I'll never ever say it because it's stupid and I have to go out of my way to remember it so NYAH YOU ARE S/HE EVEN THOUGH YOU DON'T LIKE BEING CALLED AS SUCH'. It's not effective communication if few people get it? So again shouldn't we make a conscious effort of bringing it into the collective vocabulary of the English speaking world? Because unlike some languages we don't have the luxury of having had gender-neutral pronouns and such since the dawn of time. Dragon Zachski- how is it not English? It is a word being put into the English vocabulary. It is not another language. As I said before, we could try to bring in Spivak pronouns but those are even worse in my opinion. ETA_ how did we get from bullying and enacting laws to protect LGBT to this anyhow?
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Post by Admiral Lithp on Nov 4, 2011 19:34:11 GMT -5
I've never known a discussion here to go down that specific route. But no, I don't intend to ever use zie/zir, & I fail to see why this is a problem. I'll use something else. But not that.
That is one way to look at it. I am skeptical that it's the right way.
Let me Fast-Forward Through This:
"It" "But that's offensive" "No it's not" "It's used for objects" "Doesn't mean it can't be used for something else" "But people will have an emotional reaction against it" "Kind of like me with Zie/Zir?" "That's different, it has an established connotation" "I fail to see how it's different, & I already addressed that" "It's offensive" "Whatever, doesn't mean it doesn't exist" "Whatever"
Though this conversation-at-a-glance does bring up another problem with it. So many things would be referred to as "it" that it would get really confusing really fast.
It is not accepted as English yet & it may never be, is basically what Zachski is saying. It doesn't even sound English. We really don't have a lot of "z" words.
I don't even question that.
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Post by brendanrizzo on Nov 4, 2011 19:41:09 GMT -5
Is there a reason why they chose to call it "zie"? It looks like they just threw some random letters together. How would you even pronounce that, anyway? And until you can give me evidence that there are people who do not fit the gender binary (that is, aren't just transgendered, as transgendered people are still either male or female; their sex just does not conform to their gender in this case.) I'm going to assume that that is made up. It seems too ridiculous to be true. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IntersexSo intersexed people actually view themselves as neither, then? In that case, I retract what I said.
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Post by Vene on Nov 4, 2011 20:02:13 GMT -5
So intersexed people actually view themselves as neither, then? In that case, I retract what I said. Some will, some won't.
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Post by Dragon Zachski on Nov 4, 2011 20:06:06 GMT -5
Dragon Zachski- how is it not English? It is a word being put into the English vocabulary. It is not another language. It's not English because... it's not English. It's from another language. Because we were debating the usage of they when you brought up zie/zir. Either way, there simply isn't enough numbers of people using the word to start using it casually. You seem to think that just because I start using the word casually, it'll catch on. It won't. Now, on this forum, it's possible, because there's enough people. In the entirety of the USA? Not at all.
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Post by Shane for Wax on Nov 4, 2011 20:10:52 GMT -5
It's not from another language, Zach. It sounds like it's from another language but it isn't. It was brought up quite a few years ago during an English 'club' debate.
Also, I didn't bring up zie/hir/zir. >_>
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Post by Vene on Nov 4, 2011 20:19:27 GMT -5
I actually find that argument against it pretty poor considering that English has words (and grammar) from various European languages already.
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Post by Dragon Zachski on Nov 4, 2011 20:34:47 GMT -5
It's not from another language, Zach. It sounds like it's from another language but it isn't. It was brought up quite a few years ago during an English 'club' debate. Also, I didn't bring up zie/hir/zir. >_> No, but you were the one that began arguing about it when others were arguing about they. As far as zie/zir goes, I mostly see it used in hermaphrodite fiction, such as among furries. Also "hir" is used in the same way "zir" is used. Or they'll just fuck it and go "her" because all they really want from it is a girl with a dick, but that's another discussion entirely. Either way, I know English has adopted words from other languages. That being said, it's not as simple as "start using it" in order to make others accept it. The right answer isn't to start using it nilly willy and make people wonder "WTF are they smoking?" No, there's actually numerous right answers. Such as getting the mainstream consciousness aware of it. And then have them use it correctly. The more popular the show is, faster language integration goes.
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Post by Admiral Lithp on Nov 4, 2011 20:42:15 GMT -5
I don't know how you'd even begin to integrate a word into common usage. It's my understanding that it's not usually something anyone even tries to do.
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Post by Shane for Wax on Nov 4, 2011 21:20:55 GMT -5
One wonders how so many other words came to be in the vocab of a large population if people didn't just 'start using it'.
And again, it wasn't me that started it. Vene started talking about zie/zir and before him it was Wykked Witch. All I said was that i found no problem with zie/zir/hir. So... I still don't see where you're thinking I started the whole thing. I made a rather innocent remark about how I didn't find it too difficult.
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Post by lighthorseman on Nov 5, 2011 7:25:09 GMT -5
I would expect the police to investigate, and then make an arrest if necessary. You know, do their job. Again, the police CAN'T arrest someone for assault, unless there's a complaining witness. So it needs to be the victim who complains to the police, not the school.
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Post by lighthorseman on Nov 5, 2011 7:26:55 GMT -5
Singular "they". No such thing. Generic "he" is correct, although politically unpopular.
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Post by Admiral Lithp on Nov 5, 2011 8:23:40 GMT -5
I would expect the police to investigate, and then make an arrest if necessary. You know, do their job. Again, the police CAN'T arrest someone for assault, unless there's a complaining witness. So it needs to be the victim who complains to the police, not the school. [citation needed]
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Post by erictheblue on Nov 5, 2011 10:00:56 GMT -5
Dragon Zachski- how is it not English? It is a word being put into the English vocabulary. It is not another language. It isn't even English. A quick search of Merriam-Webster and Oxford Dictionaries do not return an entry for "zie," "zir" or "hir"
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Post by brendanrizzo on Nov 5, 2011 12:01:32 GMT -5
So intersexed people actually view themselves as neither, then? In that case, I retract what I said. Some will, some won't. Just out of curiosity (and I don't mean to be rude) is anyone on this forum intersexed? If so, they could probably explain this to me better. (I could probably find out by looking through the LGBT Rollcall thread, but that's so long that I'd just be wasting my time.)
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