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Post by tolpuddlemartyr on Nov 7, 2011 6:42:20 GMT -5
I've worked in a school environment where kids were criminally assaulting another student and the school suspended them. It did nothing to stop the assaults, screw suspending them. It's a holiday and they won't give a shit! Arraign them before a fucking judge and let them know you mean business! I agree. But again, thats a police matter, not a school one, right? Schools have rules, societies have laws the two are not mutually exclusive and often cross into each others domains. Schools also have rules that extend to students and staff for obvious reasons. There is no reason why police matters should not also be school matter if an area of criminal law crosses over into the same territory as a breach of school rules!
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Post by tolpuddlemartyr on Nov 7, 2011 6:49:43 GMT -5
But my point, is that it is the victim on who's behalf the police charge someone. What the school is morally obliged to do is immediately inform the authorities when a crime of this magnitude occurs. In Australia they are legally required to do so, this is called Mandatory Reporting and it is exactly what it says on the tin. I don't know about the US but I'm pretty certain that the school would be violating their duty of care if they didn't report it.
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Post by the sandman on Nov 7, 2011 8:28:51 GMT -5
/Mod kilt on
Ok my little friend. Flame again outside F&B and get a vacation.
/Mod kilt off
Wow....you're like a retarded chimp aren't you?
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Post by erictheblue on Nov 7, 2011 8:34:06 GMT -5
Just a few things to adress recent discussions. (I know I am several days behind, but I've been rather busy this weekend with schoolwork.)
Without other circumstances, the student could not be suspended for more than 10 days. That's OH law.
The student could be expelled for a year if they brought a gun to school. (School boards can pass resolutions expanding this to include knives and making bomb threats.) Schools boards can pass resolutions to expell a student for a year for causing "serious bodily harm" on school grounds. The way serious bodily harm is defined and interpreted in the case law, however, it is a stretch to make it fit the circumstances here. (Broken bones and deep cuts requiring stitches were the most minor injuries that have been defined as serious bodily harm.) Also, I do not know if the school board had passed such a resolution.
The student could not be permanently expelled. In order to be permanently expelled, a student has to carry a gun (or other deadly weapon) at school, have controlled substances at school, or commit murder/manslaughter/felenous assault/aggrivated assault at school. The definitions of the last two are clear, and this beating does not fit either definition.
Regarding the school filing charges on behalf of the student, I am still researching this. One thing I have found leads me to think the school may not have standing. "Whenever a minor...has a representative, such as a guardian or other like fiduciary, the representative may sue or defend on behalf of the minor.... If a minor...does not have a duly appointed representative the minor may sue by a next friend or defend by a guardian ad litem." This is a civil rule, not criminal, so it is not completely applicable. That said, I assume the student who was beat up has parents. His parents would have the standing to stand in for him, which would block the school from stepping in. AGAIN, THIS IS A CIVIL RULE. I AM STILL LOOKING FOR INFORMATION ON JUVENILE OR CRIMINAL RULES.
Edit: OK, found a little more...
" If a victim is a minor... or if the victim chooses to designate another person, a member of a victim's family or another person may exercise the rights of the victim under this chapter as the victim's representative." Checking the case law, it does not say if "another person" can be the school board. Then again, it does not say "another person" cannot.
Still researching...
Edit 2: Didn't find anything else on point while scanning OH code. I do have an appointment with my Juvenile Justice professor this afternoon. I'll see if I can pose the question to her.
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Post by Dragon Zachski on Nov 7, 2011 18:34:48 GMT -5
...Okay, look.
That bully was carrying no less than four deadly weapons.
They are: Left fist, right fist, left foot, right foot.
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Post by lighthorseman on Nov 7, 2011 18:43:12 GMT -5
Thanks for the learned counseling EtB!
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Post by erictheblue on Nov 7, 2011 20:11:55 GMT -5
...Okay, look. That bully was carrying no less than four deadly weapons. They are: Left fist, right fist, left foot, right foot. Nice as that sounds, fists and feet do not count as deadly weapons. (Yes, I know it is possible to beat someone to death. On the other hand, it is also possible to kill someone with a plastic spoon...) After talking to my professor, there is no need for the school to have standing. Prosecutors can bring charges without the victim agreeing to press charges.
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Post by Admiral Lithp on Nov 7, 2011 23:05:04 GMT -5
So, to recap:
1. Schools ARE responsible for what their students do on their grounds. 2. Police CAN arrest without the victim telling them to. 3. Prosecutors CAN press charges without the victim agreeing. 4. Just about anyone CAN press charges on a minor's behalf.
Not that I'm keeping score, or anything.
Concussion doesn't count as "serious bodily harm"? I do feel the need to repeat, "Those can kill you." And having drugs is as serious as having a gun, lolpriorities. All that said, I am wondering why the school opted for a mere 3 days. I've been threatened with a WEEK for "insubordination."
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Post by RavynousHunter on Nov 8, 2011 3:53:45 GMT -5
I got threatened with a long-term suspension for trying (and failing) to throw an orange into a bin because the way to said bin was crammed with tons of students.
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Post by Twilight Zone on Nov 8, 2011 4:14:27 GMT -5
I got beat up so badly at school by 20 black gang members on what they call "Kill A Cracker Day" that I'm partially disabled. My left leg was hyperextended and completely bent the wrong way, my knee was completely destroyed. My left ankle was snapped completely and totally shattered. My back was damaged severely. They left me for dead, with two black eyes, a rearranged face and a head full of concussions. Now as a 38 year old man I've developed severe arthritis in my knee, back and ankle. It didn't even make the news. Why? Because nobody gives a shit about a dirt poor Hispanic kid being beat near death in a ghetto school. That's the public school system and that's the media.
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Post by Shane for Wax on Nov 8, 2011 5:04:55 GMT -5
i got a week-long suspension for PROTECTING MYSELF in a fight. The one who initiated? Heh. She got 1-3 days in-school suspension.
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Post by erictheblue on Nov 8, 2011 6:37:55 GMT -5
Concussion doesn't count as "serious bodily harm"? *Rereads OP* Oops, I missed the concussion when I said the injuries didn't classify as "serious bodily harm." That probably would count, which really changes the perspective.
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Post by Distind on Nov 8, 2011 6:57:35 GMT -5
Concussion doesn't count as "serious bodily harm"? *Rereads OP* Oops, I missed the concussion when I said the injuries didn't classify as "serious bodily harm." That probably would count, which really changes the perspective. Not in my experience, it's generally treated as a 'walk it off' type thing in school. Unless of course you're a star football player or such. But I think what a lot of people have been trying to point out is that this kid is hardly the only person to get beaten up (or involved in a fight) only to have little to nothing to do about it. Odds are their being gay had very little to do with the punishment, it's just the same kind of crap which happens when the administrators of a school get the same he said she said situtation. Then the video came out and it was actually handled by someone.
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Post by brandonl337 on Nov 8, 2011 11:07:28 GMT -5
i got a week-long suspension for PROTECTING MYSELF in a fight. The one who initiated? Heh. She got 1-3 days in-school suspension. I'm guessing you kicked her ass?
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Post by itachirumon on Nov 8, 2011 11:22:26 GMT -5
i got a week-long suspension for PROTECTING MYSELF in a fight. The one who initiated? Heh. She got 1-3 days in-school suspension. I'm guessing you kicked her ass? That zero tolerance bullshit has really got to stop. I remember in 8th Grade I would literally raise my hand in the assemblies where they read off the rules and ask "So does this mean if bullies come after me, have me backed into a corner and are beating me up I have to just stand there and take it?" "Yes - you should call out for help" - of course I never managed to ask "What happens when help isn't around/they do it far enough out of earshot for you[r lazy fucking asses] to hear?" I even decided back then if it ever came to that, fling my fists wildly, escape, call the teachers tell them what happened and if I got in trouble to, take it to some higher authority than the school somehow - keep in mind i was 13 and didn't think about things like expedience. And suffice it to say there were times I almost had to because the bullies seemed to see me comin' from a mile away before I even announced myself
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