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Post by Star Cluster on Dec 7, 2011 11:56:36 GMT -5
Indeed. Those ARE problems and I would even agree that misinterpretation and lack of context are the reasons for most of Christianities problems? But whaddya expect? No one ever claimed the Bible was perfect, except the fundie nutters. But that in a nutshell, IS the problem. I can't speak for Christians in the rest of the world, but I would venture that the majority, if not most, of them in the US do claim the Bible is perfect. And I can speak to this as a former Christian who's seen it for myself. For most Christians here, the Bible has to be perfect or the basis for their belief is void. To them, there are no inconsistencies or contradictions, everything can be explained as misinterpretation or as taken out of context. I have a very good friend that is, as he gets older, seemingly getting more and more fundie by the day. We were recently talking about the new TV shows that are on and which ones we are watching. I happened to mention the FOX show Terra Nova, which if you're unfamiliar with it, follows a family from the future that joins a colony that has traveled back in time 85 million years to "start over." I was telling him about the problem I had with the show prior to the first episode because I thought it stupid to go back 85 millions years when there was a mass extinction 65 million years ago. Looked like a dead end to me. Why not go back 60 million years instead? (This was conveniently explained away in the first episode by sending a probe into the past, not knowing where or when it would end up, and then different time lines coming into play. Of course, without the danger of dinosaurs, what would you have other than a colony in the jungle? But I digress.) He looked at me and asked "Do you believe that shit?" I asked, "Believe what?" And said, "That the earth is that old." I replied that I did and he said, "Well I sure don't. I don't think it's more than 6000 years old, like the Bible says." I said "Okay" and left it at that. Now here's the kicker. He's an owner in a business pertaining to the fuel oil industry. My point being, while the rest of the world may be enlightened somewhat, this is the type of crap we have to put up with in the US. The saying "The Bible says it, I believe it, and that settles it" is held by more people than you would care to think about.
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Post by mechtaur on Dec 7, 2011 13:04:05 GMT -5
The laws in leviticus could have been for the Israelites and everyone else. It also says not to commit adultery (in the same chapter) as well as not to murder, steal, etc. So you need to show that Homosexuality is in the category of customary laws, or in the case of laws for everyone. No, the 613 Mitzvah are for the Jewish people only. Gentiles are not held by them, but by the laws of their country. Same thing as Islam.
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Post by Admiral Lithp on Dec 7, 2011 15:50:18 GMT -5
What I hate is when you take an idea that Fundies attribute to the Bible as canon, but now you're misinterpreting the Bible because it's not actually in there.
This is why I frequently get Fundies to tell me what they personally believe about Christianity, so I have something to quote at them when they try to backtrack later.
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Post by lighthorseman on Dec 7, 2011 18:54:23 GMT -5
Indeed. Those ARE problems and I would even agree that misinterpretation and lack of context are the reasons for most of Christianities problems? But whaddya expect? No one ever claimed the Bible was perfect, except the fundie nutters. I can't speak for Christians in the rest of the world, but I would venture that the majority, if not most, of them in the US do claim the Bible is perfect. Mostly just gutter baptist fundies who have never actually read it. Its not a tennet of Catholicism, for example. Most people who actually bother to read or study it don't think it is. Yes, there are those that insist its inerrant, and I, for one, maintain those people are wrong.
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Post by davedan on Dec 7, 2011 18:58:11 GMT -5
I can't speak for Christians in the rest of the world, but I would venture that the majority, if not most, of them in the US do claim the Bible is perfect. Mostly just gutter baptist fundies who have never actually read it. Its not a tennet of Catholicism, for example. Most people who actually bother to read or study it don't think it is. Yes, there are those that insist its inerrant, and I, for one, maintain those people are wrong. I thought most of them maintained that the bible was inerrant because of the bit in Timothy. I also thought (official) catholic doctrine was that both the bible and the pope were inerrant because they were guided by god.
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Post by lighthorseman on Dec 7, 2011 20:22:44 GMT -5
Mostly just gutter baptist fundies who have never actually read it. Its not a tennet of Catholicism, for example. Most people who actually bother to read or study it don't think it is. Yes, there are those that insist its inerrant, and I, for one, maintain those people are wrong. I thought most of them maintained that the bible was inerrant because of the bit in Timothy. I also thought (official) catholic doctrine was that both the bible and the pope were inerrant because they were guided by god. The Pope is considered inerrant when speaking ex cathedra, which doesn't happen too often. Catholics don't hold the Bible to be inerrant as a matter of faith, though of course some individual nuts do. The bit in Timothy doesn't actually claim the Bible is inerrant (though literalists love to spin it that way) it just says inspiredby God, inspiration=/= dictation.
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Post by Star Cluster on Dec 7, 2011 20:37:27 GMT -5
I can't speak for Christians in the rest of the world, but I would venture that the majority, if not most, of them in the US do claim the Bible is perfect. Mostly just gutter baptist fundies who have never actually read it. Its not a tennet of Catholicism, for example. Most people who actually bother to read or study it don't think it is. Yes, there are those that insist its inerrant, and I, for one, maintain those people are wrong. It could very well be a regional thing, and granted there aren't a lot of Catholics here, but I'd say that most of the Christians I know, regardless of denomination, do think it is inerrant and won't even listen to any discussion to the contrary. Of course, I do live smack dab in the middle of the Bible Belt, so that probably shouldn't come as a surprise.
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Post by lighthorseman on Dec 7, 2011 20:45:23 GMT -5
Mostly just gutter baptist fundies who have never actually read it. Its not a tennet of Catholicism, for example. Most people who actually bother to read or study it don't think it is. Yes, there are those that insist its inerrant, and I, for one, maintain those people are wrong. It could very well be a regional thing, and granted there aren't a lot of Catholics here, but I'd say that most of the Christians I know, regardless of denomination, do think it is inerrant and won't even listen to any discussion to the contrary. Of course, I do live smack dab in the middle of the Bible Belt, so that probably shouldn't come as a surprise. I think you are right. Here even the most fundie Christians tend to accept parts of the biblehave errors or are other than literal. Hence you don't get many Australians trying to rebuild a functional ark or opening creationism museums. A few, but not many.
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Post by mechtaur on Dec 7, 2011 21:31:12 GMT -5
Mostly just gutter baptist fundies who have never actually read it. Its not a tennet of Catholicism, for example. Most people who actually bother to read or study it don't think it is. Yes, there are those that insist its inerrant, and I, for one, maintain those people are wrong. It could very well be a regional thing, and granted there aren't a lot of Catholics here, but I'd say that most of the Christians I know, regardless of denomination, do think it is inerrant and won't even listen to any discussion to the contrary. Of course, I do live smack dab in the middle of the Bible Belt, so that probably shouldn't come as a surprise. I'm gonna say it is a regional thing too. Most people here, while still trying to shoehorn things in, will acknowledge that there are some things that aren't quite right.
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Random Agnostic
Junior Member
A secularist and religious skeptic.
Posts: 76
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Post by Random Agnostic on Dec 8, 2011 18:23:54 GMT -5
"Not of this World"
Inappropriate for two reasons:
One, for the most part it doesn't seem so much "I'm following Christ" as much as "Look at me, look at me! I'm different!".
Then of course, you're not really 'not of this world' when you're just using worldly ideas and tweaking them towards your religion. Rewriting lyrics of pop songs and changing logos to fit Christian fundamentalism, calling your beliefs 'rebellion' as a marketing gimmick to attract teenagers and so forth. Yes, marketing gimmicks are 'worldy' things.
"With God all things are possible!"
Then, why the crucifixion? Why pain and suffering?
Heck, why this life? Why can't we all just get free tickets to heaven?
"God doesn't give you anything you can't handle."
A cliched and very naive meme. The quoters conveniently never define something you can't handle. This person seems to push things like WWII, starvation throughout the world, rampant disease, and natural disaster out of the equation.
Getting back to reality, I've actually briefly skimmed over an essay written by a Christian denouncing this quote, giving an example of a mother who lost all her children in a horrific accident.
"Jesus is coming soon!
Define 'soon'.
"The skeptic says: 'Show me proof of God', the believer responds: 'Believe in God, and he will reveal himself to you'."
I forget who this was from, but it's equivelent: The skeptic says: 'Show me proof this chicken egg is red', the believer responds: 'Put on these red lenses, and the truth will be revealed to you'.
"We all deserve eternal torture. We are all evil, etc."
This is basically a reflection of the 'might equals right' style of morality depicted in Christianity. God is mighty, we are created, he made it impossible for us to perform to his unrealistic expectations, and it's our fault, and of course this is justice because God said so and he's almighty, ergo, might equals right.
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kinigget
New Member
At some point, I WILL have an avatar I swear!
Posts: 3
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Post by kinigget on Dec 10, 2011 0:23:07 GMT -5
I just found one: "God will not be mocked!". Basically, it's a warning against doing things like marriage equality or abortion, because God will never stand for that kind of thing y'know? It's a last resort of someone who knows they just lost the argument but doesn't want to admit it.
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Post by Admiral Lithp on Dec 10, 2011 1:50:29 GMT -5
Or if you're making fun of God. That's great. "Well, I'm mocking him, so I guess he will."
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Post by The_L on Dec 10, 2011 7:14:44 GMT -5
It's not a phrase, per se, but the annoying tendency to be offended by the kind of religious jokes that aren't even offensive. I've known of some folks to be offended by this sort of thing:
That isn't mocking Christians or their god in any way. If you think it is, then you have a very curious definition of the word "mock."
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Post by Admiral Lithp on Dec 10, 2011 18:51:26 GMT -5
So they're upset that the kids are more clever than he thought & he's out-of-touch with the people he's trying to out-logic?
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Post by Wykked Wytch on Dec 10, 2011 21:52:34 GMT -5
It's not a phrase, per se, but the annoying tendency to be offended by the kind of religious jokes that aren't even offensive. I've known of some folks to be offended by this sort of thing: That isn't mocking Christians or their god in any way. If you think it is, then you have a very curious definition of the word "mock." I don't get it.
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