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Post by Magnizeal on Dec 23, 2011 20:50:33 GMT -5
When I go to work, I wear a shirt, tie, and pants. Not merely because I prefer wearing those things, but it's out of respect for my co-workers and superiors. I am not a woman; I do not look like a woman; I do not identify as a woman nor do I live as a woman. If I went to work in a sundress and a big floppy hat, with unshaved legs and underarms I would look silly, just like if I went to work with balloons taped to my head. It's unprofessional and unbefitting for my environment. Why is this? I don't know. Why is anything in or not in style? I don't know and I don't think there is any written manual that explains it. Similarly, it would be inappropriate for me to walk into the ladies' restroom. Why do we have separate restrooms? It's not like anybody is going to see my genitals if I'm in a stall, but it's just considered inappropriate for me to use a woman's restroom. Every society develops customs and conventions, and you either follow them and fit in or you buck them and be outcast. I'm saying that there is an appropriate balance: in certain areas you shouldn't be afraid to buck trends. However, with personal hygiene and clothing I think one should lean more towards fitting in. This is my personal opinion and how I would raise my children. Men and women have different bodies and I do not see it as oppressing any sex over another to have certain grooming and fashion habits for one sex, and certain grooming and fashion habits for the other. Women have much more freedom than men when it comes to clothing options, but then again they have more requirements with their grooming. It evens out. I think the real societal problem is acceptance of transgender people. If you are biologically a man but mentally identify as a woman, this is a legitimate psychological issue and society should help, not hinder, you into your transition as a woman. If you genuinely identify as being of the opposite sex, then this is a legitimate reason to adopt that sex's conventions in regards to personal appearance because you would want to be perceived as being of that sex. Sex is not a binary, first of all, and society will frown on trans* people for as long as gender roles continue to be enforced. And no, having the freedom to wear a dress does not in any way 'balance' the fact that I am expected to spend an -hour- in putting on makeup, doing my hair, doing my nails, and shaving, just to be 'presentable', over and above what it takes to get dressed. Your privileged is showing and I'm sick of your mansplainig, and I will not shut up.
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Kali
Junior Member
Posts: 68
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Post by Kali on Dec 23, 2011 21:53:04 GMT -5
When I go to work, I wear a shirt, tie, and pants. Not merely because I prefer wearing those things, but it's out of respect for my co-workers and superiors. I am not a woman; I do not look like a woman; I do not identify as a woman nor do I live as a woman. If I went to work in a sundress and a big floppy hat, with unshaved legs and underarms I would look silly, just like if I went to work with balloons taped to my head. It's unprofessional and unbefitting for my environment. Why is this? I don't know. Why is anything in or not in style? I don't know and I don't think there is any written manual that explains it. Similarly, it would be inappropriate for me to walk into the ladies' restroom. Why do we have separate restrooms? It's not like anybody is going to see my genitals if I'm in a stall, but it's just considered inappropriate for me to use a woman's restroom. Every society develops customs and conventions, and you either follow them and fit in or you buck them and be outcast. I'm saying that there is an appropriate balance: in certain areas you shouldn't be afraid to buck trends. However, with personal hygiene and clothing I think one should lean more towards fitting in. This is my personal opinion and how I would raise my children. Men and women have different bodies and I do not see it as oppressing any sex over another to have certain grooming and fashion habits for one sex, and certain grooming and fashion habits for the other. Women have much more freedom than men when it comes to clothing options, but then again they have more requirements with their grooming. It evens out. I think the real societal problem is acceptance of transgender people. If you are biologically a man but mentally identify as a woman, this is a legitimate psychological issue and society should help, not hinder, you into your transition as a woman. If you genuinely identify as being of the opposite sex, then this is a legitimate reason to adopt that sex's conventions in regards to personal appearance because you would want to be perceived as being of that sex. And there are plenty of people who are cisgender (I think that's the right term?) but prefer dressing as the opposite gender. Like me. I dress in men's clothes, I don't wear make-up, etc. I am definitely not male. It's more okay for me, since it's harder to tell the difference between guys' jeans and girls' jeans. But the principle is the same. Should I wear skinny jeans and piles of makeup and curl my hair and shit, just to fit societal norms? Of course there are situations where I have to conform; I'm not going into work in jeans, and I'm not going to the gym in a suit. But on my off time, going to the store or whatever, who says I can't dress how I want? And it's not different because I'm an adult. I knew I preferred boys' clothes since I was a kid. It hasn't changed. I haven't changed. Why shouldn't kids be allowed to figure out who they are, and then be that? And if that includes a boy wearing a dress, big whoop.
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Post by ironbite on Dec 23, 2011 21:56:39 GMT -5
I do find it odd that someone who is a member of this site can take this type of stance.
Cestle, do you not know how trans-friendly this board is? Not even that, just how stupid it sounds when you take this same stance and not know how stupid you sound? You're basically going "I want everything like this and there's nothing you or anyone else can do to stop me. Nyah"
Ironbite-it's really heartbreaking to watch you unravel like this.
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Post by cestlefun17 on Dec 23, 2011 22:03:25 GMT -5
This is exaggeration. There is a wide range of style within men's and women's fashion that allows for a broad opportunity of individual choice. I'm saying I believe in balance between individuality and communality. I'm not advocating for all men to adopt one single style and all women to adopt "skinny jeans and poiles of makeup" and curled hair.
Okay this is my absolute last post for real here because I'm repeating myself again. Of course you have the right to wear whatever you want. I would not wear opposite-gendered clothing as I personally find it to be inappropriate and unprofessional, and I would think the same towards other people. I would never dream of actually approaching someone and telling them off about it; it is merely what I would think of them (in reality I wouldn't even judge, this is a hypothetical where it is definitively known all gender identity issues are off the table. In real life I wouldn't know if the person were transgender). I am going to raise my children to behave how I think it is appropriate to behave, and for me that means in certain ways trying to fit in with society.
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Colosphe
Junior Member
And nothing of value was contributed
Posts: 92
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Post by Colosphe on Dec 23, 2011 23:15:13 GMT -5
I'm perfectly fine with stamping out gender stereotypes; boys and girls can do whatever they want. It's impractical to have these stereotypes exist. Until they're gone, however, they will affect how other people see you. I don't wear My Little Pony shirts because I'd have to deal with things I'd otherwise not be pressed about.
When it comes to raising kids, I'll certainly impose my values on my children. That's half the fun of parenting!* However, I know that society will impose certain expectations as well, and by cautioning them about the inevitable consequences, I'm hoping they'll lead better lives. Let's not forget that for every success story with happy parties all around, there's a negative story with the side we like getting stomped into the dirt. I'd rather remove the route that leads to a coin flip determining whether or not my genetic information removes itself from the biological equation. If my kids face these choices, I'm hoping they'll be wise enough to choose the path of least resistance (Not talking about academics with least resistance, just cultural norms).
*Sarcasm!
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Post by nightangel1282 on Dec 24, 2011 0:36:42 GMT -5
From my experience in school, when it comes to bullies... it's almost as if they have what I call "different detectors". If they suspect that you are in any way different from the other students, then you'll automatically be a target for bullying or teasing. If your child does have trans. tendancies, even WITHOUT wearing a dress, you can bet that the other kids will pick up on the fact that he's "different" anyways. And if the kid KNOWS he is different and shows any evidence that he is ashamed of that fact, it will only make the situation worse.
But if you teach your kid to be confident and happy with who he is... bullies lack self confidence themselves, and their goals are to tear people down so they can feel bigger. They tend to target children with no self confidence, rather than kids who know who and what they are and are damn proud of it.
Of course, this is just based upon my own personal experience. Feel free to take it with a grain of salt. All kids are different, after all.
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Post by Dragon Zachski on Dec 24, 2011 1:07:11 GMT -5
Cestle, I don't think you realize something.
As long as you hold the current attitude (that it's wrong for boys to wear dresses in public) then you are contributing to the problem that trans people have (which is people think that it's wrong for a boy to be a girl)
Screw gender rules. Any law or social norm, written or unwritten, that has different standards for each gender is sexist and must be stamped out. You don't stamp it out by playing along with it, that's for sure.
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Post by DeadpanDoubter on Dec 24, 2011 3:51:49 GMT -5
Late to the party (holy fuck, Cestle, really? REALLY? is women wearing pants "unprofessional"?) but I want to give that teacher a huge hug. Good on ya!
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Post by itachirumon on Dec 24, 2011 4:33:39 GMT -5
My respect, you just lost it, entirely. I don't care that you'd "never dream of telling them off to their face" - you basically hold the same views as some chick from Texas I used to be friends with through another friend. Hated gay people but "wouldn't talk about it" to maintain civility. That's a cop out, you still hold the views, we still KNOW you hold the views. You still perform your life in a way as to hold those views, so you may as well be open and upfront with people about them. Go up to that woman in pants, or the man wearing the dress, tell them they're fucking inferior to you and different than you. Tell them how you FEEL about them. Otherwise you're just a hypocrite. Actually, I just lost MORE respect for you because you WON'T keep your views out in the open. That's cowardly. Fred Phelps and Bryan Fischer are pure human garbage, but at least they have the balls to make their views open. Now I'm not calling you pure human garbage, not even close. But at least have the nads to wear your prejudice on your sleeve. Except you won't. Because then you'd have to confront it, and the cognitive dissonance of not being as liberal as you thought would upset you. Love your hypothetical omniescant comprehension cop out by the way. Oh, you didn't know that was a cop out? It is. It shows "this is how I feel...BUT DONT WORRY I HAVE BLACK/JEW/GAY/TRANS/JAPANESE FRIENDS SOME OF MY BEST FRIENDS ARE THOSE PEOPLE" Meh, I lost my train of thought still focusing on the Autistic kid who was stuffed in a duffel bag because apparantly thats what our society does to people who are different. Treats them like trash.
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Post by cestlefun17 on Dec 24, 2011 8:46:11 GMT -5
I keep wanting to leave this discussion but I can't help myself.
You obviously didn't read my posts. It's not about bringing back gender roles from the 1800s, it's about what is in style and considered generally acceptable wear by the public today. If you go into the Gap or Macy's or JC Penny, you will see plenty of pants in the women's section. The same can't be said for dresses in the men's section.
Prejudice means to pre-judge. I would not be pre-judging in this instance. My judgement would be limited purely to the fact that they were dressed inappropriately for public, which is something that would be made after I had seen their dress. It would be equally inappropriate for me to actually confront the person over it because we live in a free society and it's absolutely none of my business how people choose to dress. However, when it comes to me and my children and how we dress, it is my business and I will regulate it according to my beliefs and value system.
I don't understand this comparison. I'm not saying bad things about transgender people but then saying "But I have transgender friends!" Being transgender is not a choice; cross-dressing is. And I'm sure you're all aware on here by now how I feel about chosen behaviors. They can be judged and they are not off-limits. People are judged on their actions.
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Post by Vene on Dec 24, 2011 11:06:46 GMT -5
I keep wanting to leave this discussion but I can't help myself. You obviously didn't read my posts. It's not about bringing back gender roles from the 1800s, it's about what is in style and considered generally acceptable wear by the public today. If you go into the Gap or Macy's or JC Penny, you will see plenty of pants in the women's section. The same can't be said for dresses in the men's section. Why 1800s when you can go as recent as the 1980s? I also find it quite funny the way you take arbitrary social norms and accept them to be the bestest thing evar! when the social norms you follow were forged by freaks and perverts that you currently dismiss.
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Post by cestlefun17 on Dec 24, 2011 11:21:11 GMT -5
I am not a fashion expert. I don't know exactly how things come into style, although I'm sure it's an organic process that isn't really definable. If you want to be at the forefront of fashion and try to get dresses for men to come into style, be my guest. It's just that I'm not going to take you seriously until you succeed, if you even do succeed.
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Post by Vene on Dec 24, 2011 11:22:26 GMT -5
I am not a fashion expert. I don't know exactly how things come into style, although I'm sure it's an organic process that isn't really definable. If you want to be at the forefront of fashion and try to get dresses for men to come into style, be my guest. It's just that I'm not going to take you seriously until you succeed, if you even do succeed. *pinches cheek* It's so cute how you think this is about fashion!
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Post by Tenfold_Maquette on Dec 24, 2011 11:24:17 GMT -5
But if you teach your kid to be confident and happy with who he is... bullies lack self confidence themselves, and their goals are to tear people down so they can feel bigger. They tend to target children with no self confidence, rather than kids who know who and what they are and are damn proud of it. It's the other way around; bullies tend to have too much self-confidence, because 1. they're usually from a social/gender-based position that allows them freedoms not enjoyed by others and 2. their behavior usually goes unpunished which does nothing toward teaching them respect or restraint. People who are softer-spoken, more empathetic, or have already been abused to the point of capitulation - people with lower self-esteem (as in, they put the well-being of others over their own) in other words - do not usually become bullies. There are exceptions, of course.
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Post by The_L on Dec 24, 2011 12:20:32 GMT -5
I am not a fashion expert. I don't know exactly how things come into style, although I'm sure it's an organic process that isn't really definable. If you want to be at the forefront of fashion and try to get dresses for men to come into style, be my guest. It's just that I'm not going to take you seriously until you succeed, if you even do succeed. *pinches cheek* It's so cute how you think this is about fashion! Someone should remind him how bloomers on women were viewed 100 years ago. It was pretty much the same opinion society has now of men in skirts-that-aren't-kilts.
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