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Post by Jodie on Dec 22, 2011 15:07:29 GMT -5
That is so awesome. I wish more teachers were like that.
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Post by cestlefun17 on Dec 22, 2011 15:09:12 GMT -5
Wonderful article in every respect except I disagree with letting small children pick out their own clothes. It's not like if I have a girl she can only wear frilly pink dresses and boys wear blue slacks, but if my son wanted to wear a dress just because he likes the way they look, then that would get the parental veto just like any other article of clothing — boys' or girls' — I wouldn't consider fit to wear in public. (If on the other hand my son wanted to wear dresses because he had gender identity disorder, then after sitting him and myself down with a psychologist, I would of course allow him to transition to a girl in whatever way the psychologist thought would be best).
This irritates me to absolutely no end. Thankfully it's been against the dress code in every school I've attended or worked at.
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Post by anti-nonsense on Dec 22, 2011 15:37:01 GMT -5
that's awesome! What a great teacher!
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Post by Magnizeal on Dec 22, 2011 15:37:38 GMT -5
Wonderful article in every respect except I disagree with letting small children pick out their own clothes. It's not like if I have a girl she can only wear frilly pink dresses and boys wear blue slacks, but if my son wanted to wear a dress just because he likes the way they look, then that would get the parental veto just like any other article of clothing — boys' or girls' — I wouldn't consider fit to wear in public. (If on the other hand my son wanted to wear dresses because he had gender identity disorder, then after sitting him and myself down with a psychologist, I would of course allow him to transition to a girl in whatever way the psychologist thought would be best). And what if wanting to wear dresses 'because he likes how they look' is the first sign of gender identity disorder? What if he says they 'look nice' because he likes how they look on him? To put it another way, what reason do you have to limit the dresses? Or any article of clothing. As long as all the important bits are covered, what does it matter? You are still enforcing gender stereotypes by saying girls can wear dresses in public but boys can't. You're just not being as radical about it.
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Post by anti-nonsense on Dec 22, 2011 15:45:55 GMT -5
Wonderful article in every respect except I disagree with letting small children pick out their own clothes. It's not like if I have a girl she can only wear frilly pink dresses and boys wear blue slacks, but if my son wanted to wear a dress just because he likes the way they look, then that would get the parental veto just like any other article of clothing — boys' or girls' — I wouldn't consider fit to wear in public. (If on the other hand my son wanted to wear dresses because he had gender identity disorder, then after sitting him and myself down with a psychologist, I would of course allow him to transition to a girl in whatever way the psychologist thought would be best). And what if wanting to wear dresses 'because he likes how they look' is the first sign of gender identity disorder? What if he says they 'look nice' because he likes how they look on him? To put it another way, what reason do you have to limit the dresses? Or any article of clothing. As long as all the important bits are covered, what does it matter? You are still enforcing gender stereotypes by saying girls can wear dresses in public but boys can't. You're just not being as radical about it. I agree with this, I'd just let the kid know that some other kids might tease him about it and then let him do what he wants, if he's just experimenting once or twice will probably be enough and if it's something more, this is how you find out.
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Post by Tenfold_Maquette on Dec 22, 2011 15:54:35 GMT -5
And what if wanting to wear dresses 'because he likes how they look' is the first sign of gender identity disorder? What if he says they 'look nice' because he likes how they look on him? To put it another way, what reason do you have to limit the dresses? Or any article of clothing. As long as all the important bits are covered, what does it matter? You are still enforcing gender stereotypes by saying girls can wear dresses in public but boys can't. You're just not being as radical about it. ^This. Also, who the hell cares about making a big deal about a few extra/less inches of cloth, or the type/color of fabric used? That's all the real difference is between "boys" and "girls" clothing anyway.
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Post by cestlefun17 on Dec 22, 2011 15:57:09 GMT -5
I would ask him questions about how he felt about being a boy, take him to a psychiatrist, and in this hypothetical scenario if it's determined he has no issue with his gender, then the dress gets the parental veto. We're talking about small children, who don't have a sense of fashion yet never mind a sense of societal norms (who will, without hesitation talk about private parts and bathroom activities in public).
I'm his father and I care about his appearance. How he looks in public is a reflection of my parenting abilities.
A potato sack would cover all the important bits too but I would care about my child's appearance and make sure he went out in public dressed cleanly and appropriately.
It just is not socially acceptable for boys to wear dresses (unless they have a gender issue in which case they identify as girls). Why? I don't know. Our society has lots of quirky customs no one really understands. Individuality should be encouraged certainly, but to an extent. It's good to fit in a little as well. And part of being a good parent, in my opinion, is teaching children how to find that balance. If you teach your kids they can do whatever they want under the license of "creative expression" or "uniqueness" or whatever barf-inducing hippie nonsense some parents like to spread these days, then your children are going to either grow up as lonely social outcasts or conceited obnoxious douchebags who think they're God's gift to earth and can do no wrong.
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Post by Shane for Wax on Dec 22, 2011 16:29:27 GMT -5
Way to shit on a good story, cestle. Just... bravo.
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Post by anti-nonsense on Dec 22, 2011 16:37:28 GMT -5
nobody is saying kids should be allowed to do whatever they want in the name of creative expression, they certainly shouldn't be allowed to do anything that hurts somebody else, but a boy wearing a dress is hurting nobody, and so what if he's' not conforming to social norms, if he decides he cares about that he can wear something else the next day and will have learned something about himself and about society.
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Post by cestlefun17 on Dec 22, 2011 16:51:56 GMT -5
Well, sorry. That's my opinion on the story. I loved everything about it except the part where the teacher says she lets her own small children pick out their own clothes. Obviously if that's her parenting style she is entitled to raise her children that way. It's just completely opposite of what my parenting style would be.
Because I'm talking about young children. If my 17-year-old son insisted on wearing a dress, I'd probably say have at it, just make sure you know what you're getting into. But I simply would never allow my small child to dictate his own appearance. If he's playing dress-up in the house, or even wants to wear a dress for Halloween, those are perfectly acceptable contexts for that behavior.
Talking about "going poopy" or private parts, etc. in public "doesn't hurt anyone" either. However, it is considered improper behavior. Children wearing mismatched outfits, wrong-gendered outfits, costumes, or disheveled clothes in public is also, in my opinion, improper behavior and I would parent my children accordingly.
There are certain ways in which others expect us to comport ourselves, as children and adults. I think it is best to raise children to find a balance between being themselves but also caring about how others perceive them. This balance would be, for example, wearing what is considered acceptable for boys to wear, but within that category there is a lot of different colors, styles, etc. to choose from (with the child getting to pick his own outfits around age 10 but subject to parental approval, and getting more freedom regarding style as he gets older).
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Post by Dragon Zachski on Dec 22, 2011 17:05:51 GMT -5
Well, sorry. That's my opinion on the story. Here's a solution: Keep your opinion to yourself.I have to do it sometimes. Learning when not to speak can be a very valuable lesson. You know what else is considered improper behavior by society? Being gay. Out of curiosity, would you prevent your hypothetical daughter from wearing pants? Those are traditionally boys' garb.
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Post by davedan on Dec 22, 2011 17:26:55 GMT -5
Do you have kids Celeste? Because I can tell you they have a sense of fashion and style from when they are 2. All my kids have said no to particular clothes or said they want to wear a particular shirt from 18 months or so. I try to get my daughter to wear boys clothes(her two older brothers' hand me downs) mainly because I am cheap and lazy but she refuses. My kids have uniforms at school but if the boys wanted to wear a dress out or the girl boys clothes I don't think I would give a fuck. But then again Australian dress standard is much more relaxed than the US.
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Post by cestlefun17 on Dec 22, 2011 17:54:11 GMT -5
This is an Internet forum. People post their opinions on the topics presented. You can criticize my opinion, but it is ludicrous to say I shouldn't voice an opinion because it's contrary to what everyone else thinks. I love the article, I really do. My only critique of it is that it's bordering a little into kumbayah territory for my liking, mainly in regards to clothes. I loved how the teacher put the traditional "boy" and "girl" activities on the board and the boys realized that they love doing some of the girl things and vice-versa. I am very particular, however, about personal appearance and comportment in public, and I don't see anything wrong with a parent requiring their children to dress a certain way (provided that their child does not have a gender identity issue). Yeah it always goes back to the gays on this board. Being gay is not behavior (while having gay sex is behavior — a behavior that could be done by gay and straight people — it is motivated by a non-behavioral status). Neither is being transgendered, which is why I've been stressing the fact that what I've been saying so far would never apply to a situation where my child was actually transgendered. Today it is considered acceptable, stylish, and professional for women and girls to wear pants. The same cannot be said for boys and dresses. I'm not saying that boys shouldn't wear dresses because of tradition, but because it is not considered socially acceptable today. Fashions change. It used to be considered improper for boys to wear full-length pants (which were for grown men only) and instead had to wear knickers. If the same were to happen with dresses, then I would consider it. Even when the topic of boys wearing dresses is brought up, the concept is not seen in a context of boys fashion but still in a context of gender-bending. I don't have children, and I realize that every family and child is going to have its own set of circumstances. I was never allowed to pick out my own outfits until I was in 4th grade, which even then had to be approved by my mother. Eventually, I got older and she gave me more leeway as to what to wear as I matured. There is a balance and that balance shifts towards more freedom for the child as he gets older and is also highly dependent on the maturity of the child. I probably would never trust my two-year-old with dressing himself, but if we were clothes shopping and wanted to pick out things he liked, and I approved of those articles, then I would have no problem with buying those things for him. I would not, however, allow my two-year-old to dictate his own public appearance.
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Post by The_L on Dec 22, 2011 17:56:04 GMT -5
I'd just let the kid know that some other kids might tease him about it and then let him do what he wants, if he's just experimenting once or twice will probably be enough and if it's something more, this is how you find out. Exactly. Warn the kid that there's gonna be teasing, because you can't stop the teasing. But kids need to be able to experiment with who they are and what kind of person they want to be. Otherwise, they start doing this as an adult, when the stakes are higher--or worse, they end up with a completely stunted personality, afraid to be themselves because they're so used to their choices being belittled or forbidden. Experimenting with being the opposite gender is even more disastrous to discourage, because by the time you're an adult, your body's secondary sex characteristics are pretty well set in stone, and it's much more difficult and expensive to change them. Do you have kids Celeste? Because I can tell you they have a sense of fashion and style from when they are 2. All my kids have said no to particular clothes or said they want to wear a particular shirt from 18 months or so. This. The only exception I would make is if my kid insisted on me buying an expensive brand-name shirt over a nearly-identical off-brand shirt. I will buy my kids clothing in whatever color or style they want, but I draw the line at paying extra for nothing more than a brand name.
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Post by Shane for Wax on Dec 22, 2011 17:56:50 GMT -5
Fuck being socially acceptable. A little boy wearing a dress used to be socially acceptable, don't you recall? So what if he wants to wear one without being trans?
It seems to me you don't actually care about whether your hypothetical child is teased but rather how people might look at you.
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