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Post by cestlefun17 on Dec 22, 2011 18:02:09 GMT -5
I agree with all of this. What I'm saying is that allowing kids to experiment with who they are does not need to be an all-or-nothing arrangement. Children do need some boundaries too. I wouldn't have a problem with my son experimenting however he liked while playing dress-up, but he also needs to learn that in public people are expected to dress a certain way. He can dress up as a frilly pink princess during playtime or Halloween, but at pre-school he's wearing the khaki pants and the navy vest with his hair combed. If he wants some say over his clothes that's fine too to some extent, but he also needs to understand you get more freedoms (and also more responsibilities) as you get older.
I would be concerned about 3 things: him being teased, him not looking appropriate in public, and how this would reflect on me (because the appearance of small children is reflective on the parents).
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Post by The_L on Dec 22, 2011 18:03:25 GMT -5
Fuck being socially acceptable. A little boy wearing a dress used to be socially acceptable, don't you recall? So what if he wants to wear one without being trans? It seems to me you don't actually care about whether your hypothetical child is teased but rather how people might look at you. This is why I decided to completely ignore my dad's insistence that I not date Latinos ever. "Other people might make your life more difficult if you did." Fuck other people, Dad, the real reason is that YOU don't like the thought of brown people fucking your daughter. Far better to be honest to your kids. I'd have been much more respectful if Dad had simply said "I don't like the thought of you dating Latinos." Yes, it would have been a racist statement, but it wouldn't be dancing around the issue. (I swear Dad isn't always as horrible as my posts make him sound, btw. The awesome stuff just tends to be such common fatherly behavior that I don't see much point in talking about it.)
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Post by Kisare on Dec 22, 2011 18:04:11 GMT -5
Wonderful article in every respect except I disagree with letting small children pick out their own clothes. It's not like if I have a girl she can only wear frilly pink dresses and boys wear blue slacks, but if my son wanted to wear a dress just because he likes the way they look, then that would get the parental veto just like any other article of clothing — boys' or girls' — I wouldn't consider fit to wear in public. (If on the other hand my son wanted to wear dresses because he had gender identity disorder, then after sitting him and myself down with a psychologist, I would of course allow him to transition to a girl in whatever way the psychologist thought would be best). This is the point of this article ------>.this is you ------>.YOU FAIL.
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Post by cestlefun17 on Dec 22, 2011 18:14:23 GMT -5
I guess agreeing with an article is an all-or-nothing affair.
Whatever works for Allie's parents and for the teacher and her daughters is what works for them. I have no right to criticize it. What I'm saying is that my parenting philosophy would be different, and I would not criticize or demonize parents who take the opposite position in regards to (and only in regards to) public dress, provided that they take this position after having undergone the necessary steps to ensure their child does not have a gender identity issue.
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Post by lexikon on Dec 22, 2011 18:17:05 GMT -5
Here comes the fashion police!
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Post by cestlefun17 on Dec 22, 2011 18:25:30 GMT -5
That's part of what parents do. If my small child wants to wear a striped shirt with plaid shorts to school, I am not going to allow it because "he needs to be able to express himself and be who he is and be his unique self and not be restrained creatively puke barf vomit." He will be told: "No, honey, that doesn't match. You can wear either the shirt or the shorts and Daddy will pick out the other half."
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Post by The_L on Dec 22, 2011 18:36:04 GMT -5
That's different from the "no dresses" example, though. You're hardly banning your kid from wearing plaid in that scenario.
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Post by lexikon on Dec 22, 2011 18:37:54 GMT -5
Yeah. Also dresses match and look good. Unless you're like me and hate dresses, but then you shouldn't single out just boys.
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Post by cestlefun17 on Dec 22, 2011 18:40:24 GMT -5
It's not acceptable to wear plaid with stripes and it's even more unacceptable for boys to wear dresses. I'm responding to lexikon by saying that parents do have the right to play fashion police and make sure that what their children wear out of the house is socially acceptable.
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Post by lexikon on Dec 22, 2011 18:42:31 GMT -5
Well, the plaid is because it looks bad, but the dresses is just plain sexism, and we should spit in the face of prejudice whenever we feel like it.
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Post by cestlefun17 on Dec 22, 2011 18:46:46 GMT -5
I don't see how it's prejudiced. I am not saying that either women or men are greater or lesser than the other because it is more acceptable for women to wear dresses than men. What I'm saying is is that I believe that there are certain ways to dress appropriately in public — some of this dependent on gender as well as age — and I will raise my children accordingly. Such parents should not be demonized for this. How grown adults dress, and how other adults dress their children, is their business and I recognize I have no right to interfere in it.
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Post by Kisare on Dec 22, 2011 19:39:26 GMT -5
I don't see how it's prejudiced. I am not saying that either women or men are greater or lesser than the other because it is more acceptable for women to wear dresses than men. What I'm saying is is that I believe that there are certain ways to dress appropriately in public — some of this dependent on gender as well as age — and I will raise my children accordingly. Such parents should not be demonized for this. How grown adults dress, and how other adults dress their children, is their business and I recognize I have no right to interfere in it. Why is it unacceptable for your child to wear a dress, then? Edited because it needed it.
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Post by Yaezakura on Dec 22, 2011 19:57:49 GMT -5
I don't see how it's prejudiced. I am not saying that either women or men are greater or lesser than the other because it is more acceptable for women to wear dresses than men. What I'm saying is is that I believe that there are certain ways to dress appropriately in public — some of this dependent on gender as well as age — and I will raise my children accordingly. Such parents should not be demonized for this. How grown adults dress, and how other adults dress their children, is their business and I recognize I have no right to interfere in it. Why is it unacceptable for your child to wear a dress, then? Edited because it needed it. Because he believes it would make him look bad to other adults if he let his son out in public in a dress. It has nothing to do with societal standards or making sure his kid looks presentable. It's entirely about how other people view him. And if he has to traumatize his kid to put up that good face to the world, so be it.
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Post by cestlefun17 on Dec 22, 2011 20:09:07 GMT -5
It is not, in my opinion, acceptable for any boy to wear dresses in public (not counting gender identity issues of course). I would look down on any parents who allowed this, or allowed their children to go out in public wearing any sort of ridiculous or unacceptable outfit. I'm just saying it's not my place to try to regulate their parenting. They're certainly not being abusive by letting their children dress in such a way. If that's what works for them, so be it. Just don't call me an intolerant parent because I have higher standards for my children in terms of public appearance.
It would make both me look bad and my son look bad. It's not a bad thing to care about how other people regard you. It shouldn't be the only thing you care about, but like most things in life there is an appropriate balance that needs to be found.
As I'm saying that the circumstances would be entirely different if my child had a gender identity issue, this has nothing to do with trying to force my child into a certain gender identity s/he didn't actually feel. I'm talking about situations where my three-year-old son wants to wear a dress to pre-school because he thinks it looks nice, just as if he thought plaid and stripes together would look nice. It doesn't look nice and it's not acceptable to me, and I don't think I should be considered some intolerant monster because of it.
I don't see how it is traumatizing for parents to regulate what their children wear.
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Post by anti-nonsense on Dec 22, 2011 20:10:03 GMT -5
well personally I'd gently suggest to the kid that he might not want to wear plaid with stripes but if he was dead-set on it I'd let him, not worth an argument over something as minor as mismatched clothes. As long as it's clean and covers all the appropriate parts people can dress as they wish.
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