Kali
Junior Member
Posts: 68
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Post by Kali on Dec 22, 2011 22:24:50 GMT -5
Also, what aboout a boy who is not transgender, but just likes wearing girls' clothes? Like the girl in the article. Would that be not okay? It's his gender identity, after all.
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Post by Shane for Wax on Dec 22, 2011 22:25:41 GMT -5
It's socially unacceptable for Eddie Izzard to wear dresses!
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Post by ironbite on Dec 22, 2011 22:27:17 GMT -5
And now we get to the crux of the argument. See this really isn't about gender identity at all. It's what the kid feels comfortable wearing. If that's a frilly pink dress, it's a frilly pink dress. Oh and fun fact, its only a recent development where boys get blue and girls get pinked. If memory serves me, it used to be the other way around.
Ironbite-of course only real men wear pink so...
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Post by Magnizeal on Dec 22, 2011 22:32:25 GMT -5
And now we get to the crux of the argument. See this really isn't about gender identity at all. It's what the kid feels comfortable wearing. If that's a frilly pink dress, it's a frilly pink dress. Oh and fun fact, its only a recent development where boys get blue and girls get pinked. If memory serves me, it used to be the other way around. Ironbite-of course only real men wear pink so... I agree!
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Post by Shane for Wax on Dec 22, 2011 22:36:03 GMT -5
SERVANT WOMAN! BRING ME A DRYING CLOTH AT ONCE!
WHAT!?
I'm a Saiyan! This is a disgrace! I can't wear this! It's Pink! What about my pride?
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Post by Kisare on Dec 22, 2011 22:40:01 GMT -5
This is a lack of independent thought. You said this. You display a lack of independent thought.
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Post by ironbite on Dec 22, 2011 22:40:37 GMT -5
SERVANT WOMAN! BRING ME A DRYING CLOTH AT ONCE! WHAT!? I'm a Saiyan! This is a disgrace! I can't wear this! It's Pink! What about my pride? And I read that in Lanipator's Vegeta voice from DBZA. Ironbite-lovely.
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Post by cestlefun17 on Dec 22, 2011 22:43:01 GMT -5
That's what I'm talking about. Gender identity refers to the gender you identify with (hence gender identity). I'm talking about a small child who has no gender identity issues but wants to wear a dress because he doesn't know any better or "just because." Small kids can sometimes have unusual fixations or desires to do things without any real motivation.
I've been trying from the get-go to distance this from gender identity issues, which would have a much different set of circumstances. I don't care if my small child feels "more comfortable" wearing a dress than pants; he will wear the outfits I pick out for him. It's not like pants are going to cut off his circulation and kill him.
What does this have to do anything? I never said anything to the contrary. I have a pink dress shirt myself. I think pink can look very sharp on men. It is certainly stylish and no one would find me ridiculous for wearing it.
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Post by RavynousHunter on Dec 22, 2011 22:44:04 GMT -5
SERVANT WOMAN! BRING ME A DRYING CLOTH AT ONCE! WHAT!? I'm a Saiyan! This is a disgrace! I can't wear this! It's Pink! What about my pride? And I read that in Lanipator's Vegeta voice from DBZA. Ironbite-lovely. Lanipator does sound eerily close to Chris Sabat...
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Post by Wykked Wytch on Dec 22, 2011 22:56:33 GMT -5
Even when I was a little kid, my parents let me wear whatever the heck I wanted and I turned out just fine. I've dressed up in Halloween costumes... before it was even October! And my brother played the Fairy Godmother in a school play! OH, THE HORROR!
As long as no genitalia or mammary glands are swinging around in plain view, it's okay to wear.
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Post by itachirumon on Dec 22, 2011 22:59:06 GMT -5
I'm going to ask what was sorta asked but not dogged on here. You keep saying "OH but it's fine if its a gender identity thing" (kinda in a "My best friends are X" sorta way too..just sayin') - how do you know it WOULDN'T be? You "look down" on other kids who might not be dressed to match or might be wearing something that differs from the norm? How do you know that Jim Bob's son Tommy who wore that pretty pink dress to school isn't expressing his OWN gender identity? Or Claire wearing a tomboy outfit? How do you know when you look at the OTHER kids that they're just "dressing inappropriately" or that its a gender identity thing? Truth is? YOU DON'T!
And just what IS dressing inappropriately anyway? When your little kid wants to wear a dress, LET HIM. Its fucking kindergarten or preschool, who the hell is going to either care or remember a year or two from now? Other than that awful family of WASPS named the Joneses down the street who tsk tsk tsk whenever they see you.
My point is - it hurts NOTHING, except YOUR own pride. He might get teased a bit, that's to be expected. Just as well they might be impressed with his self-confidance. If he comes home sad, you give him big hugs, kisses, maybe some ice cream. Sit down, and have the same talk you could have had with him earlier in the day about "how he feels about being a boy" and everything. You can explain the "norms" and how they're constantly evolving, and ask him if he wants to stick to this type of clothing, or that. Jesus, it's really not that difficult..is it? Seriously?
You're comin' across as one of those "It's haaaarrrdd to teach my kid gay people exist, its haaaaard Karen"
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Post by cestlefun17 on Dec 22, 2011 23:06:45 GMT -5
That's wonderful. I have no right to tell other people how to raise their kids, provided they aren't physically or mentally abusing them. It would never be my parenting style to do what your parents did, nor was it my own parents' style.
And when did I say anything that would indicate that I wouldn't want a male playing a fairy godmother in a school play? What happens on stage is make-believe, just like dress-up playtime.
This will be my last post in this thread because it's devolving into nonsense. All I'm saying is that yes, you should be yourself, but this also needs to be moderated by instilling some balance with fitting into society. I'm saying that, while it's wonderful that this may be what works for Allie and her family in the article, I would not criticize or demean parents who took the opposite approach (provided that there are no gender identity issues going on). This balance between expressing oneself and fitting in is found in different ways in different areas. For me, it swings heavily to the latter when it comes to public appearance (how you dress: is what you're wearing neat, clean, free of holes and dirt, appropriately sized, matches, appropriate for your age and gender, and appropriate for the environment you're in?) and personal grooming and will swing more towards "being yourself" in different areas.
---- I said before: it's a hypothetical example. After being thoroughly evaluated by a psychiatrist, and finding that there is no gender identity issue, this is how I would handle the situation.
You're right: I wouldn't, and would not make presumptions in real life. Here, I'm talking about my responses to a hypothetical example where gender identity issues are definitively known to not be present.
As for the rest of your post: no, I will not let him wear a dress to school. Sorry. I find it inappropriate. I guess that means I (along with the vast majority of parents in the Western world) will be sentenced to sterilization. Once gender identity issues are off the table, it's about maintaining a respectable, appropriate appearance, especially at school.
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Post by lexikon on Dec 22, 2011 23:18:18 GMT -5
In conclusion:
Celestie and a bunch of others are sexist, and nothing is going to change how they dress their kids until their kids grow up.
Who has burdizzos?
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Post by Kit Walker on Dec 22, 2011 23:20:28 GMT -5
I agree with some parts of what Cestle is saying. Like it or not, most people don't think "oh, what an unusual outfit that child picked out" when they see a kid wearing something out-of-the-ordinary. They tend to think "Why did their parents dress them up like that?". On the one hand, reinforcing the arbitrary gender norms doesn't help society move forward. On the other hand, bucking those norms simply for the sake of doing it invites a lot pain into your household needlessly. As with many of a child's desires, you have to balance your child's wishes against protecting them. What the parents of other kids think of you and your parenting will impact your child's socialization, for good or ill.
I don't know. It's something that requires a level of balance. I mean, if/when I have kids, I'd have to consider it. If my boy wanted to wear girl's jeans or a My Little Pony t-shirt/sneakers...I'd probably let that go. Same with a girl wanting a Batman or Spider-Man shirt/sneakers and some cargo shorts. It is courting ostracism, but its not quite as open about it. But letting the boy child go to school in a full on dress? Letting the girl run around the pool in swim trunks and no shirt? That's actively inviting people to ostracize your family. We don't live in a society that allows that. I know fucking hurtful bullying in elementary school is and I'm gonna do my best to prevent my kids from going through that any more than they have to.
If that means saying no to some or even most of what they want to wear during the school year, I'd do it.
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Post by Sigmaleph on Dec 22, 2011 23:39:20 GMT -5
Wow, people. Caring about societal standards doesn't make you a hive-mind or unfit to be a parent. It makes you a human being who has to live in that society.
People will judge your children for how they adhere to the "rules", including fashion, and that's something you do have to teach them.
That general point being made... some standards are more hard-wired into society than others. I think "boys' clothes and girls' clothes" is one that can and should be defied (but then, I am a crossdresser...). As opposed to, say, "You should not show your genitals in public", or "Children should not go about calling teachers 'cunt'" which are I think a bit too strong to ignore when your kid defies them.
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