Truly insane: “OMG! Teh gov’t skoolz r evle!”

[wmdkitty]

May 25, 2009 23:01:11 GMT -5 Nutcase said:

May 25, 2009 19:39:46 GMT -5 wmdkitty said:

And therein lies the problem -- most homeschooling parents AREN'T willing to give a thorough education, and are ENTIRELY INCOMPETENT. They want to use a book of FAIRY TALES as a "textbook".

Myths and legends - and it's not wrong for parents to pass their beliefs on to children. It's wrong when parents, many of whom benefited from good schooling, are willing to deny their kids the same benefit out of some misguided attempt to protect them from the real world. And with the Lowers, the problem goes deeper than that.

Homeschooling SHOULD be banned, because all it does is turn out social retards (at best), and drooling christfag breeders (normally).

Sorry, but...bullshit. You're painting with a really broad brush and claiming the state, even in the absence of just cause, should have a stronger claim to a child than its parent. Bad things happen when a state takes that position.

There are plenty of legit reasons to home-school, especially in areas where the public schools are dilapidated and dangerous.

I said: MOST.

Not "all".

MOST.

The only reason public schools are "dilapidated and dangerous" is because they cut everything (including maintenance and security) just so they can fund their precious sports programs.

"He doesn't fit in with the other kids" is not a valid reason to homeschool. (So he's different to the other kids. Suck it up, Teach; discipline the kids who are being dicks to him, then do your fucking job and educate the little shits.)

Neither is the desire to shelter your child from reality. (In fact, most kids learn to deal with reality *because* they go to public schools, and are faced with it every day.)

Nor is the desire to give your child a "godly" education. (Go ahead, teach your kid about your religion, but it should NEVER be the basis for your kid's education. This entire site is living proof of just how bad that idea is.)

These are the reasons most commonly given for homeschooling, and they're all cop-outs.

The only legitimate reason I can think of is, like, your kid is immune-compromised (kids are quite literally walking petri dishes), or otherwise (physically) affected by his environment. (No. Allergies don't count -- Benadryl exists for a reason.)

If you do choose to homeschool your kids, you should be held to the same standards as the schools, using the same (or state-approved) textbooks, and it ought to be a strict requirement that *any* parent wishing to homeschool be certified by the state to teach.

[Nutcase]

May 26, 2009 5:26:32 GMT -5 wmdkitty said:

I said: MOST.

Not "all".

MOST.

If you consider the oodles of highschool kids at home taking correspondence courses, not even most people are home-schooled merely for religious reasons or because their parents want to emotionally cripple them.

The only reason public schools are "dilapidated and dangerous" is because they cut everything (including maintenance and security) just so they can fund their precious sports programs.

That's not exactly a ringing endorsement of education in a public school.

These are the reasons most commonly given for homeschooling, and they're all cop-outs.

I don't think parents should have to give a reason. If they do, however, the most common is probably that home-schooled kids can move up through the grades - especially the primary ones - more quickly.

Most adults have mastered elementary materials and could teach these to their children. They may or may not have the patience or training in classroom management to teach 30 kids, all of whom are at slightly different levels academically, but they can certainly instruct their own.

If you do choose to homeschool your kids, you should be held to the same standards as the schools, using the same (or state-approved) textbooks, and it ought to be a strict requirement that *any* parent wishing to homeschool be certified by the state to teach.

I think the state should be at arms-length - present but not omnipresent. Its job should be to a) do the minimum required to assure kids are getting a decent education, and b) identify and deal with abuse.

"The minimum" might be a yearly standardized test of a child's literacy and numeracy. Vetting all curricula and forcing unnecessary qualifications on parents is a bit more than the minimum.

[David D.G.]

May 26, 2009 5:06:04 GMT -5 wmdkitty said:

May 26, 2009 0:05:42 GMT -5 @antichrist said:

Personally if I had a child that they wanted to put on Ritlan or started going on about the kid not fitting in, or whatever, then I'd home school.

I completely understand not wanting to dope up your kid.

I'd take the kid to a doctor and a -- uh, crap, is it the psychiatrist or psychologist that prescribes the meds? (Whichever it is, I think I need to see one and get my meds adjusted.)

Anyway, I'd get a legitimate medical opinion (or three) before being all knee-jerk pull-my-kid-out-of-school. I mean, what if your kid really does need Ritalin?

It does bother me when teachers and administrators say, "your kid needs meds." It also bothers me when there's a kid that needs meds and doesn't get them because the parents decided that the school was somehow flawed or wrong, and their kid is a precious little snowflake... he's just a little energetic... (This, when the kid in question is disrupting the whole class, and will not follow directions.)

Sometimes, the kid doesn't need meds, he just needs discipline.

Sometimes, the kid acts out because of things going on at home.

But it's up to a doctor to make a diagnosis and determine whether or not the kid legitimately needs meds -- not the parents, not the school, and especially not the teacher.

Having spent my entire childhood on various forms of legalized speed, I can say that it's NOT, you know, fun-tiemz medication. However, without it, I never would have survived school -- even now, I miss the ability to focus. (I don't miss the side-effects and mood-altering components, though.) That shit really fucked me over good, and it turned me into a paranoid, anxious, twitchy mess -- but I could stay on task!

ATM, I'm in the middle of one of my anxious/panicky/depressive episodes, and for some reason this manifests as a combination of hostility and irritability mixed with the urge to self-mutilate -- someone could say "hello" to me right now, and I'd be all snarly and hostile. (I don't know *why* my anxiety disorder manifests in this manner.) I feel like crying, laughing, cutting myself, and killing someone all at once, and it scares the hell out of me. It scares me that I feel this way, it scares me that I have this urge to harm myself, I'm downright terrified, and I don't have a "safety net".

You guys are pretty much it.

It's a pretty big step, for me, to sit and analyze how I'm feeling, and to stop and think about it, and to *know* that it's irrational. Just a few years ago, I wouldn't have been able to step back and identify my feelings; I would have simply lashed out at anyone and everyone in my way. I've been telling myself for a couple of days now that I just have to ride it out, that I'm going to be okay... not that it's worked.

I'm trying not to take my shit out on anyone else.

I'm trying not to take it out on myself, either, but if I don't have an outlet, I *will* self-destruct, and it's likely to end in stitches and a psych hold.

I am afraid of myself, and what I am capable of doing.

Now, try dealing with *that* emotional state when you're trying to focus on a lesson, and you can't turn the feelings off, and the kid behind you is (rather noisily) chomping on his pencil, and the kid next to you won't stop bouncing his leg up and down (and not only can you *see* it out of the corner of your eye, you can *feel* it.), and there's another kid in the back of the room tapping his pencil on the desk, and various little noises from the hallway and from outside -- Hey, I wonder what kind of bird that is, maybe it's a robin? -- and because of all that, you missed the entire lesson -- and the material is going to be on the test tomorrow!

My emotional state, at this time, is *far* from stable. I am literally on the verge of tears as I type this.

You'd think, after the verbal beat-down I get every time I post in this state, I'd have learned to just STFU until I'm feeling more normal.

Unfortunately, this *is* my only real outlet. I can't talk to my parents or siblings about how I feel, they really don't "get it". My own sister asked me, once, "What do you have to be depressed over?" My. Own. Goddamn. SISTER. Said. This. To. Me.

Fortunately, once the meds kick in (a day or two to get stabilized, at most), I should be back to my "normal" self, and I won't be coming across as such a huge dick -- just a small one.

...er...

...uh...

::facepaw::

Crap.

That sounded *so* wrong.

</rant>
</tangent>

(((((wmdkitty)))))

I have some experience with a mood disorder myself, which can be a serious pain --- and mine has seldom been even half as severe as what you seem to be describing. Yikes.

Best of luck getting yourself stabilized and feeling better ASAP.


~David D.G.

[renaissanceblonde]

*comfies wmdkitty*

[captainhooker]

May 25, 2009 4:56:28 GMT -5 Trillian said:

Being secluded from the reality of the real world makes it easy to believe. Having your faith tested, and still coming out the other side with a belief in God is much harder.

This is the problem I have with so many of these "seperatist" fundies - they don't seem to have any faith in their faith. Instead of strengthening their (or their children's) faith, they think they're doing a favor by removing all temptation whatsoever. What good is self-control if there is nothing to test it?

Sounds like a thinly veiled lack of faith to me...

[brendanjd]

Unless a parent can prove that they are as aualified as a professional teacher, they should not be abllowed to educate their kids.

Simple as that.

If they can do so, then I support it whole-heartedly. But to allow any idiot fundamentalist to homeschool their kids under the veil of parental rights is just asking for trouble.

[Dragon Zachski]

I disagree, brendan-- an adequate solution would be to have yearly state-required exams to see how the child is progressing. Having to go through the legal loopholes to be qualified as a professional teacher would be a pain in the ass.

and wmdkitty... I'd like to point out that it's most of the homeschoolers you hear about that have all these issues.. There's a lot more secular homeschoolers out there (in fact, homeschooling originally started as a secular movement) and religious homeschoolers who know how not to fuck things up. The problem is that they aren't loud-spoken about it, so they slip under the radar.

[Bezron]

Don't they currently have aptitude tests? My sister was home schooled, due to a mixture of gang ridden schools and my mom's fundieness. I know she had to do something every year to prove her progression. Since I had already moved out by that time, I'm not sure what she had to do, but I know she had to do something every year to prove that she was progressing.


Said sister, by the way, is the most well-adjusted one out of the three of us.

[brendanjd]

May 27, 2009 11:33:47 GMT -5 Dragon Zachski said:

I disagree, brendan-- an adequate solution would be to have yearly state-required exams to see how the child is progressing.

That is hardly an adequate solution. For example, let's say I decide to teach my kids. The state shows up for their 1st test and find that my 4 year old can't do all the things a 4 year is supposed to be able to do and would be able to do if he was in a public school. Now my kid us a year behind everyone else, and will have to suffer the consequences because of it.

My method would make sure that the parent knows what they are doing before they are allowed. Pre-emptive measures rather than reactionary measures.

May 27, 2009 11:33:47 GMT -5 Dragon Zachski said:

Having to go through the legal loopholes to be qualified as a professional teacher would be a pain in the ass.

Too bad. Wanna teach? Get the same state sanctioned credentials (or equivalent) that every other person who wants to teach has. Without those credentials, but having the privilege of teaching, the whole system in undercut.

[Dragon Zachski]

May 27, 2009 13:27:15 GMT -5 brendanjd said:

Too bad. Wanna teach? Get the same state sanctioned credentials (or equivalent) that every other person who wants to teach has. Without those credentials, but having the privilege of teaching, the whole system in undercut.

So basically, what you're saying is that rather than pursue some other career, a parent who wants to home school HAS to plan ahead in their younger years and dedicate his/her time and money to get a shiny piece of paper for teaching a large amount of students when they only need to teach 1-3 kids of their own.

Anyone can teach. If you want to teach professionally, as in earning pay for it, you go to school to get that shiny paper. Home schooling parents don't get paid for it, but they doesn't mean their quality of education is any less.

The paper means nothing. There are teachers in public school who have that shiny piece of paper and fail horribly at teaching.

EDIT: Also, by your logic, any student who tutors another student should first have a teaching certificate, or else the system is "undercut".

[antichrist]

I agree with the testing, it should be done at a location other than the home and by a certified third party (I don't care if they have to go to the local police station to do the test, as long as we can prove that mommy isn't there answering the questions for the kid).

I'm worried about how it seems schools are trying to figure out what's wrong with your kid, rather than teaching them, especially in the elementary levels. Things that used to involve a trip to the principals office and a call home are now requiring a shrink, a diagnosis and drugs. Kids are idiots, that's why their not given the same rights/responsibilities as adults. And as far as the social skills, I didn't go to school with the kids in my neighbourhood. They all went to the Catholic schools, I went to public. We met after school and played then.

[Nutcase]

May 27, 2009 10:56:22 GMT -5 brendanjd said:

Unless a parent can prove that they are as aualified as a professional teacher, they should not be abllowed to educate their kids.

Simple as that.

If they can do so, then I support it whole-heartedly. But to allow any idiot fundamentalist to homeschool their kids under the veil of parental rights is just asking for trouble.

Fine - drag a parent in and test her to see if she's achieved mastery over elementary school materials and is literate enough to read a teacher's answer key. But she certainly doesn't need to have training in classroom management or any of the other specialized skills often (but not always) required of someone who teaches large groups.

Teachers' aides who work with special needs students often don't have any sort of advanced qualification, despite their often being the primary source of education for such kids.

The idea that the state should have more say over the education of a child - not just equal say, mind you, or the power to monitor, but more say - than his parent is both dangerous and ridiculous.

As for this nonsense about a four-year-old being tested and found wanting, and oh noes how's he ever going to catch up to his peers !11!!11eleventy --

There are tonnes of kids in public school who fall through the cracks and test far more poorly than their grade-level says they should. The most successful of them catch up through private tutoring, while the others are either pushed up through the grades or dropped into special education classes where they can learn even more slowly and fall even further behind.

[Rat Of Steel]

May 26, 2009 5:06:04 GMT -5 wmdkitty said:

I'd take the kid to a doctor and a -- uh, crap, is it the psychiatrist or psychologist that prescribes the meds? (Whichever it is, I think I need to see one and get my meds adjusted.)

Psychiatrist.

Hope ya feel better soon. *huggles you*

[Old Viking]

Most people can teach their own children? Anyone can teach? Hell, the majority of parents are lucky if they get the kids potty trained.

[wmdkitty]

May 27, 2009 19:31:43 GMT -5 Old Viking said:

Most people can teach their own children? Anyone can teach? Hell, the majority of parents are lucky if they get the kids potty trained.

::snicker::

Parents are there to teach values.

Schools are there to teach things like maths, literature, and history. (Granted, most of the history classes are pure bullshit, with the context and causes of events, at best, barely touched, in favor of teaching who won what battle, and blah blah blah, because context is just *so* unimportant.)