Sayna
Junior Member
Posts: 70
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Post by Sayna on Mar 12, 2009 21:18:40 GMT -5
I'm sure that there are a lot of people born as the result of rape that would disagree, and a lot of women who do see their children as a gift or a good thing to have come out of a horrible situation. But it would make me feel terrible to know that that's how I was born, even though I had nothing to do with it. I would want to kill myself if someone tried to force me to carry any pregnancy to term, but to have your body violated and then have the government tell you that you don't have any right to decide what happens to it... that is unthinkable. Why does everyone think people are pro-life because they hate women? They just, for some reason, see a fetus as a person. Not all can be like, "Oh, a woman, I must have control over her!" But they don't have a rational reason to see a fetus as a person. In the early stages of pregnancy a zygote/embryo/fetus doesn't have the physical ability to feel pain or anything near a consciousness. It's got human DNA, but unique human DNA isn't enough by itself to define a person. Even if it is a person, no person has the right to use another person's body without their consent, even if they need it to live. Why should a non-sentient fetus have more right to a woman's body than she does? I've yet to meet a pro-lifer whose opposition to abortion was not rooted in misogyny. Also: Feminism is the belief in equality between the sexes. Anyone who believes that one sex is superior is, by definition, not a feminist. (Especially when that supposed superiority is based on something people are born into!)
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Post by schizophonic on Mar 12, 2009 23:48:16 GMT -5
I'm sure that there are a lot of people born as the result of rape that would disagree, and a lot of women who do see their children as a gift or a good thing to have come out of a horrible situation. But it would make me feel terrible to know that that's how I was born, even though I had nothing to do with it. I agree, but the thing is that we're told that it's a good thing with no regard for how a lot of people would feel knowing they were the product of rape. They accentuate the positive and eliminate the negative, as the song goes. And it gets even worse when you consider instances like this where. She. Would. Die. Regardless, being told you're required to be a life support machien is....Wrong. One of the things that amazes me is how many women buy into those misogynistic principles, too. "Yes! I have no right determining the state of my own body!" But that's a reasonable stance, so we're instead going to paint it as our diametric opposite, instead. We want to oppress women, so it only makes sense that they want to oppress us!
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adoylelb90815
Full Member
I'm the feminist intellectual fundies warned you about
Posts: 120
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Post by adoylelb90815 on Mar 14, 2009 15:15:31 GMT -5
There are some fundies who believe that any girl or woman who didn't die trying to preserve her virginity is at fault for being raped. Even then, there's no way a 9 year old can carry a baby, let alone twins to term. One of the reasons I'm very pro-choice is in cases of rape.
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Post by Bojangles on Mar 14, 2009 15:36:47 GMT -5
There are some fundies who believe that any girl or woman who didn't die trying to preserve her virginity is at fault for being raped. That's so fucked up. This blame the victim mentality really pisses me off. And in this case, a nine-year-old girl. She's still basically a baby herself. Even if there were no risks to her own health it would be criminal to force her to go through the pregnancy. This little girl needs to be loved and looked after and cherished. She needs a safe place to live, people to trust and the knowledge that none of what happened was her fault and that her stepfather is totally to blame for what happened. She needs to be cared for and protected, not forced to go through a terribly stressful, both physically and emotionally, process that her poor body and mind can't handle. Seriously what kind of sicko hears this story and their first reaction is "she must keep the babies even if she dies" instead of "oh my god, this poor innocent child, let's help her and protect her"? You've got to be really messed up in the head to believe the fetus to be of more importance than a scared, hurt, scarred child.
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Post by Caitshidhe on Mar 14, 2009 15:58:53 GMT -5
*points* This. It just goes to show that religion has been corrupted and twisted to be all about PUNISHMENT and CONTROL than about those totally unimportant things like love and peace. All these people do is parrot the hateful, anti-woman, anti-HUMAN rhetoric they've been fed their entire lives without stopping to give some rational thought as to the circumstances. It's a sheep mentality--just follow the herd, follow the herd. Even if the herd says that a little girl deserves to die for the crimes of her sicko stepfather.
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Post by cosmopants on Mar 15, 2009 10:28:45 GMT -5
"Fundamentalists live in a world obsessed with sexuality. It provides the primary texts of Biblical citation. It's the concrete referent of the fulminations against secularism, secular humanism, post-modernism, ethical relativism, feminism, deconstructionism, etc. It's also what the vaunted claim of "moral values" is all about. Morality is not about a life of charity, or the pursuit of justice, or the opening of oneself to the depth of human suffering. It's about avoiding certain sexual sins and fixating on that dimension of life to the virtual exclusion of everything else."www.counterpunch.org/davis01082005.html
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Post by schizophonic on Mar 15, 2009 11:52:22 GMT -5
*points* This. It just goes to show that religion has been corrupted and twisted to be all about PUNISHMENT and CONTROL than about those totally unimportant things like love and peace. All these people do is parrot the hateful, anti-woman, anti-HUMAN rhetoric they've been fed their entire lives without stopping to give some rational thought as to the circumstances. It's a sheep mentality--just follow the herd, follow the herd. Even if the herd says that a little girl deserves to die for the crimes of her sicko stepfather. How does one even get so caught up in this that they can't see that there is an actual child at the heart of this? How do they manage to blame her with a clear conscience, or condemn a doctor for saving her life, or even ignore the rapist? It baffles me. I understand the way the Catholic Church (and many other groups) micromanage morality, but that understanding only occurs in theory. I can't see it working in the real world; I can only accept it does and see red because of it. Not only did thy marginalise a little girl to the point of being an incubator, they are completely ignoring the certainty of her death in the process, because they've been told the line until it became a pavlovian response: Abortion is murder. Maybe I just can't follow the pack, but these were the sorts of things that had me questioning God early on. They're the sorts of things that led me to leave the flock, too.
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Post by Death on Mar 15, 2009 12:37:13 GMT -5
Update. The Vatican has sorta kinda lika come out saying that it sorta kinda lika is backing down on this issue. Hard to know what their position is, other than they offer support for the well being of the 9 yr old girl without actually saying they approve of the method used to save her life. I would say this is nothing but a cynical move on their part to cover their own arses and not offend their members. www.iht.com/articles/ap/2009/03/15/europe/EU-Vatican-Brazil-Girls-Abortion.php
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Post by devilschaplain2 on Mar 15, 2009 13:04:37 GMT -5
You know what I say? Fuck it; I'd be happy to be out of an organization like that. My cousin lives in Germany (my uncle is a retired Master Sergeant in the U.S. Army and married a German woman) and he was raised Catholic. Because of that he had to pay a certain percentage of his earnings to the Catholic Church. Well, last year after finally admitting to me that he didn't believe in God, he officially left the Church, and I congratulated him on it.
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Post by wmdkitty on Mar 15, 2009 15:48:44 GMT -5
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7926694.stmSummary: The adults who secured a nine-year-old rape victim who was carrying twins in South America a life-saving abortion are now set to be excommunicated from the Catholic Church. The Church, apparently, has decided that it would like to be completely irrelevant rather than just MOSTLY irrelevant. Discuss. One: A NINE YEAR OLD?! Last time I checked, puberty started around 12... Two: Catholics are fucking crazy. Their official position isn't "pro-life", it's "pro-suffering". As illustrated recently in (local) debate over WA state's new "Death With Dignity" act, our local (and only!) hospital (and most health care in the Bellingham/Whatcom County area) is run by PeaceHealth, which is a Catholic organization. They refuse to comply with the law, preferring that terminal patients SUFFER a slow, agonizing death from AIDS, cancer, or... well, other terminal illness, instead of EASING THEIR PAIN and offering a quick, painless, peaceful death. I repeat, the Catholic doctrine is PRO-SUFFERING, because it is our "duty to God" to be fucking miserable. Three: Okay, I just can't get over this whole pregnant-nine-year-old thing. How the hell? Nine year old CHILDREN don't ovulate! WTF?
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Sayna
Junior Member
Posts: 70
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Post by Sayna on Mar 15, 2009 15:55:17 GMT -5
"Fundamentalists live in a world obsessed with sexuality. It provides the primary texts of Biblical citation. It's the concrete referent of the fulminations against secularism, secular humanism, post-modernism, ethical relativism, feminism, deconstructionism, etc. It's also what the vaunted claim of "moral values" is all about. Morality is not about a life of charity, or the pursuit of justice, or the opening of oneself to the depth of human suffering. It's about avoiding certain sexual sins and fixating on that dimension of life to the virtual exclusion of everything else."www.counterpunch.org/davis01082005.htmlEx-fucking-actly. I've recently discovered that this is what disgusts me most about religion and religious fundamentalists. To them, morality means obedience rather than caring for your fellow human beings or making the world a better place.
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Post by wmdkitty on Mar 15, 2009 16:00:21 GMT -5
I didn't mean to imply you were a radical feminist, that's just an idea a lot of radical feminists have: women are superior because they can push out crotch spawn. ;D I could take or leave the whole pregnancy-birth-childrearing thing, but I *do* think that women are far superior to men. We have a higher tolerance for pain, for one. For two, *we* bleed on a monthly basis, for a whole week, and still manage to function. If a MAN had to do either of those things, trust me, ANY MAN would be reduced to a whining bitch within a few hours.
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Post by Death on Mar 15, 2009 16:01:16 GMT -5
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7926694.stmSummary: The adults who secured a nine-year-old rape victim who was carrying twins in South America a life-saving abortion are now set to be excommunicated from the Catholic Church. The Church, apparently, has decided that it would like to be completely irrelevant rather than just MOSTLY irrelevant. Discuss. It happens and it's not that unusual anymore. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precocious_pubertyOne: A NINE YEAR OLD?! Last time I checked, puberty started around 12... Two: Catholics are fucking crazy. Their official position isn't "pro-life", it's "pro-suffering". As illustrated recently in (local) debate over WA state's new "Death With Dignity" act, our local (and only!) hospital (and most health care in the Bellingham/Whatcom County area) is run by PeaceHealth, which is a Catholic organization. They refuse to comply with the law, preferring that terminal patients SUFFER a slow, agonizing death from AIDS, cancer, or... well, other terminal illness, instead of EASING THEIR PAIN and offering a quick, painless, peaceful death. I repeat, the Catholic doctrine is PRO-SUFFERING, because it is our "duty to God" to be fucking miserable. Three: Okay, I just can't get over this whole pregnant-nine-year-old thing. How the hell? Nine year old CHILDREN don't ovulate! WTF?
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Post by Hades on Mar 15, 2009 16:39:55 GMT -5
It's shit like this that bitterly reminds me of how far we still need to go as a species.
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Post by wmdkitty on Mar 15, 2009 21:29:32 GMT -5
It happens and it's not that unusual anymore. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precocious_pubertyOne: A NINE YEAR OLD?! Last time I checked, puberty started around 12... Two: Catholics are fucking crazy. Their official position isn't "pro-life", it's "pro-suffering". As illustrated recently in (local) debate over WA state's new "Death With Dignity" act, our local (and only!) hospital (and most health care in the Bellingham/Whatcom County area) is run by PeaceHealth, which is a Catholic organization. They refuse to comply with the law, preferring that terminal patients SUFFER a slow, agonizing death from AIDS, cancer, or... well, other terminal illness, instead of EASING THEIR PAIN and offering a quick, painless, peaceful death. I repeat, the Catholic doctrine is PRO-SUFFERING, because it is our "duty to God" to be fucking miserable. Three: Okay, I just can't get over this whole pregnant-nine-year-old thing. How the hell? Nine year old CHILDREN don't ovulate! WTF? Erm, Death? Were you going to SAY something, there, or was it a QFT thing?
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