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Post by deliciousdemon on Mar 12, 2009 6:34:17 GMT -5
And lets not forget bisexual. Oh, and, not overcrowded on their version of earth. I forgot about that... Also they were supposed to be really beefy and peaceful. Say, where was that portal between worlds supposed to be located again? Sudbury Ontario, Canada. Whether ritualistic (boy is that a vague term... i have a ritualistic path to work each day... i make tea and noodles at work... i use the same staircase etc...) or what we today know as religious practices, or whether they did shit in the hopes that thing might be better tomorrow, not one person can say. By giving ANY one theory credit over another is dumb. To suggest religion when it isn't know whether or not religion as we know it today even existed at the time is extra dumb. To say, "We don't know but it COULD be one or more of the following, or they could all be far off the mark, it's not possible to conclusively determine" is the smart thing. The whole 'ritual' writeoff is sort of a joke amongst the anthropological community I think because it is incredibly good at describing absolutely nothing. It was sort of employed in really positivist writings as a catch-all to explain behaviours that weren't understood. As far as the Neanderthal religion goes, I agree completely. It is interesting and sometimes even useful to describe the evidence with speculation; but you'd be hard pressed to find and article that didn't have some inherent disclaimer about the hypothesising.
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Post by Star Cluster on Mar 12, 2009 7:10:19 GMT -5
I suppose it is interesting to a point to speculate whether Neandert(h)als had religion or not, but I ask again, if they did, what would that prove? Am I to suddenly think if it were shown that they did have an organized or even rudimentary religious system there must be something to religion after all?
What does it matter at what point in human history that primitive people started thinking that superior beings were angry with them, causing storms, earthquakes, volcanoes, animal attacks, or any other of an assortment of tragedies and misfortune? The further back it is discovered that religion existed only shows me the point at which humans began to think about their world instead of merely existing. Due to their inability to logically and scientifically determine what was causing these naturally occurring events, they would assume there was a supernatural cause behind them. Organized rituals and worship would soon follow in an attempt to appease whatever they thought was making these things happen to them.
Whether Neanderthals had religion or not will probably never be known absolutely. But if it is, the only thing it will show me is that they had developed to a higher level of thinking than had been previously determined.
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Post by cosmopants on Mar 15, 2009 19:46:10 GMT -5
I suppose it is interesting to a point to speculate whether Neandert(h)als had religion or not, but I ask again, if they did, what would that prove? Am I to suddenly think if it were shown that they did have an organized or even rudimentary religious system there must be something to religion after all? What does it matter at what point in human history that primitive people started thinking that superior beings were angry with them, causing storms, earthquakes, volcanoes, animal attacks, or any other of an assortment of tragedies and misfortune? The further back it is discovered that religion existed only shows me the point at which humans began to think about their world instead of merely existing. Due to their inability to logically and scientifically determine what was causing these naturally occurring events, they would assume there was a supernatural cause behind them. Organized rituals and worship would soon follow in an attempt to appease whatever they thought was making these things happen to them. Whether Neanderthals had religion or not will probably never be known absolutely. But if it is, the only thing it will show me is that they had developed to a higher level of thinking than had been previously determined. I get the impression that religion is the inevitable product of biology and ignorance. For sensible evolutionary reasons, humans are primed to see 'actors' in the world around them. For example, a hunter alone in the bush, with nothing but a flint spear to defend himself, will for very sound reasons of survival instinctively imagine an actor when he hears a branch crack behind him; the actor in this instance may be a bear, who fully intends to eat the hunter, and wear his spleen as an ornament. The hard-wired knowledge that branches do not crack by themselves, and generally require a potentially dangerous actor to crack them has saved the hunter's life. This same mechanism is at work when the same hunter is in his cave, sheltering from the raging storm that arises later that evening - the storm is frightening, he does not understand the cause, so he extrapolates the existence of an actor who causes storms - being human, the hunter imbues the storm creator with human qualities, like the angry storm, he supposes that the storm-creator must also be angry and eventually hits on the idea that the storm creator can be placated, appeased by offerings of things the hunter himself values - sacrifices of food, weapons, clothing. The baffling world around him is full of actors unseen, who wield forces he cannot match, which strike randomly and devastatingly, so quite understandably he attributes them to his own actions - each random instance of pure chaos becomes to him a judgment - his offerings have not been good enough, his obedience not complete enough. Even today on GodTV, Rory and Wendy attempt to placate their god with offerings of prayer for god to reverse his judgment upon the US economy for letting those pesky gays get married. As long as people's brains work the same way, I guess religion will persist...
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Post by Star Cluster on Mar 16, 2009 9:05:42 GMT -5
Well, yeah. I understand the mechanism by which primitive peoples came up with the god concept. Fear, lack of knowledge, superstition. That's fairly easy to understand.
What's bugging me,though, is why it seems to be important to some people that Neanderthals had religion. I fail to see any importance to this other than it would show a higher level of thinking by them than had previously been assumed. It appears that some people think that if Neanderthals had religion, it somehow shows that religion is a natural part of living, pretty much as breathing, eating, and sleeping are. I just simply fail to see, if it were to be discovered that Neanderthals did have some type of religion, just how that would be of any importance to me as to whether I was religious or not. Other than an interesting anthropological find, it is a rather moot point.
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Post by cosmopants on Mar 17, 2009 10:10:49 GMT -5
Maybe because it would help validate their own belief? Perhaps they hope they can wave it in peoples' faces and say "Ah ha! But people have always worshiped gods! That means there are gods to worship - recent studies by scientists have proved that religion goes back before the stone age!" to which we reply, "So do urinary infections. So what?"
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Post by Oriet on Mar 17, 2009 13:25:10 GMT -5
If they did have religion, I think it would just give less weight to any modern religion, because there'd be more evidence that it's based on non-supernatural reasons, and that any religion is just how those individuals express such a tendency. Kinda like how people have different ways and customs for eating, or dating, or any other number of activities.
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Post by Redhunter on Mar 18, 2009 3:56:16 GMT -5
If they did have religion, I think it would just give less weight to any modern religion, because there'd be more evidence that it's based on non-supernatural reasons, and that any religion is just how those individuals express such a tendency. Kinda like how people have different ways and customs for eating, or dating, or any other number of activities. Well, they WILL spin it to mean what they want it to mean. "Cavemen" didn't exist... unless it proves they had religion.
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Post by Moon Wolfhowl on Mar 18, 2009 5:40:20 GMT -5
I forgot about that... Also they were supposed to be really beefy and peaceful. Say, where was that portal between worlds supposed to be located again? Sudbury Ontario, Canada. And off I go. ....anybody got bus fare?
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Post by Star Cluster on Mar 18, 2009 6:06:47 GMT -5
Well, they WILL spin it to mean what they want it to mean. "Cavemen" didn't exist... unless it proves they had religion. Yeah, just like they spin that Catholics aren't Christian until they start wanting to show how the US is a Christian nation. Then they count them, because if they didn't, Christians would make up less than half of the US population. And then there goes that Christian nation thing.
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Post by Redhunter on Mar 19, 2009 2:02:27 GMT -5
Well, they WILL spin it to mean what they want it to mean. "Cavemen" didn't exist... unless it proves they had religion. Yeah, just like they spin that Catholics aren't Christian until they start wanting to show how the US is a Christian nation. Then they count them, because if they didn't, Christians would make up less than half of the US population. And then there goes that Christian nation thing. Exactly! Fundie: "There is no such thing as evolution or "ape men", everyone knows life began in the cradle of civilization, 10,000 years ago with Adam and Eve... but if they did exist, they definitely worshiped my god. SEE? God exists, even your precious cavemen knew it. What am I talking about? You know, "cavemen". Like those humanoid/monkeyman creatures... the ones that never existed?"
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Post by Star Cluster on Mar 19, 2009 6:40:12 GMT -5
And just to carry it a little further:
Fundie: Besides, evolution is false because they didn't ever find a "missing link" fossil.
And all those dinosaur bones were just planted by Satan to trick people into believing they existed when they really didn't. But they are mentioned in the Bible, you know, the leviathan and all. And Moses had them on the ark because God saved at least two of every creature, but they suddenly died after the flood. But they never really existed.
But all those fantastic animals the Bible mentions, like unicorns and cockatrices, really did exist. And just because they never found any fossils of them doesn't prove anything. It's in the Bible, and why would God lie? Prove they didn't exist."
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