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Post by Admiral Lithp on Jun 26, 2009 18:11:48 GMT -5
The Sephiroth Clones aren't really genetic duplicates of Sephiroth. The survivors of the Nibelheim Incident had his cells put into them, to help test Hojo's Jenova Reunion Theory, as well as to see if another Sephiroth could be produced. I'm guessing the reason they call them "clones" is because it ties in importantly with Sephiroth's big, "You aren't real" speech later on. "Who you're fighting" is Jenova, being controlled by Sephiroth to shape-shift into himself. Why? Because Cloud hates him, & he's going to destroy the world. And there's something later on about the characters finding their individual motives, as well. Just hang in there, you'll get it, if you keep thinking, & poking around the Mansion at different intervals.
And there's nothing WRONG with X's plot, I just said it isn't indicative of most JRPGs. I was also guessing it wouldn't be as well appreciated.
And I liked FFVII's characters!
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Post by Patches on Jun 26, 2009 20:32:50 GMT -5
The Sephiroth Clones aren't really genetic duplicates of Sephiroth. The survivors of the Nibelheim Incident had his cells put into them, to help test Hojo's Jenova Reunion Theory, as well as to see if another Sephiroth could be produced. I'm guessing the reason they call them "clones" is because it ties in importantly with Sephiroth's big, "You aren't real" speech later on. "Who you're fighting" is Jenova, being controlled by Sephiroth to shape-shift into himself. Why? Because Cloud hates him, & he's going to destroy the world. And there's something later on about the characters finding their individual motives, as well. Just hang in there, you'll get it, if you keep thinking, & poking around the Mansion at different intervals. And, see, that's about the 12th completely different explanation of the FFVII plot I've seen. Half say Sephiroth's controlling Jenova, half say Jenova's controlling Sephiroth, no one can agree whether the Sephiroth you're fighting at the end is the real deal or if he's even alive or dead. And what was the "Reunion" even supposed to accomplish? It was mostly Cloud. I have never hated a video game character as much as I hated Cloud. He's, like, the Internet Tough Guy of RPG heroes. He was a stupid little kid who angsted that the chicks didn't like him because he sucked, so he joined the army to impress them, but sucked there, too and couldn't face the truth, so he assumed the identity of his much cooler superior officer who conveniently died and left him his stuff, and then went around making up crap and showing off to everyone like, "Hey, I'm awesome." And his entire driving motivation is "Wah, wah, Sephiroth, he's a meanie," and just drags everyone else around the world on his own personal vendetta. Red XIII was the only tolerable main character. Barrett would have been if the English version didn't make him talk like Mr. T. Tifa and Aerith were both annoying airheads, Cait Sith... didn't really do much of anything, Cid was a misogynistic dickwad, Vincent was annoyingly angsty, and Yuffie was another airhead. I just couldn't sympathize with any of them.
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Post by Admiral Lithp on Jun 27, 2009 1:33:58 GMT -5
I've taken the time to be a giant nerd & looked up the official details. I'm mostly right in my interpretations, my only major fuck-ups occuring in other Compilation installments.
Now: Anyone who says Jenova is controlling Sephiroth missed A LOT of subtle clues throughout the game. The simplest way to sum these up would be: Why? Sephiroth doesn't have any powers Jenova doesn't have.
Except willpower. That's important. Sephiroth controls Jenova because Jenova has little to no will of its own. That's why Jenova always shape-shifts into Sephiroth: Sephiroth is expressing his form through Jenova.
Granted, there are parts of the game that make the distinction difficult, but I thought, at the end of the game, that conclusion was a lot more obvious.
And Sephiroth is, in fact, dead during the final battle. Death in FFVII's world is synonymous with the soul separating from the body & returning to the Lifestream, which is what happened. However, he didn't diffuse. The last battle is described as, "Sephiroth making a last-ditch assault on Cloud's mind, attempting to take over his body."
It's a battle of wills, in other words. When Cloud's will overpowers Sephiroth, Sephiroth begins to diffuse in the Lifestream. This, incidently, was used later to explain why there are 3 Remnants of Sephiroth, in Advent Children.
As to the Reunion, it's basically Jenova's way of regenerating. What it meant for Hojo was another experiment. It's suggested to be another part of what draws Sephiroth to Cloud. Honestly, its roll is relatively minor. The Sephiroth copies are how you know you're going the right way, more than anything else. The important things are Jenova's abilities:
Shape-shifting, which Sephiroth uses to mold Jenova's main body into his form. It also explains the bizarre, monstrous forms he uses to fight at the end of the game.
Mind abilities, which Sephiroth rarely uses for their intended purpose, but occasionally uses them to astral project.
Regeneration, which was what Sephiroth was trying to do for most of the game, as you'll note that the lower half of his body is missing, when you see his real body in the Whirlwind Maze. This is synonymous with the Reunion, which is simply Jenova drawing its cells back together.
Enhanced physical & magical abilities, which is painfully obvious in all of the Jenova cell enhanced characters.
...I liked Cloud.
Well, that sure is one way to look at it.
Zack was pretty cool, but he felt really 2D to me. I prefer Cloud as a character.
The latter part of this is true, although I have to note that he tells everyone later on to discover their reasons for fighting.
The former, he really didn't "make up" stuff, he was just really fucked up by everything that happened. He imitated Zack so well due in part to the fact that they were friends, & in part to the inherent abilities of the Jenova cells to--for lack of a better phrase--read peoples' minds & mimic them.
Yeah, I know how weird that sounds, but, "Jenova's powers are passed onto people based on their stage of development, & the purity of the Jenova cells...those who are just injected with its cells have all of its abilities, but to a much lesser extent."
I liked all of them. I didn't find Tifa or Aerith airheaded, Cait Sith was more of an avatar for Reeve, Cid really lightens up after realizing that Shera saved his ass, Vincent was cool, & Yuffie was SUPPOSED to be slightly air-headed. Even so, she's a Hell of a lot less annoying than some of the FF games' other minor female party members. *CoughPenelocough.*
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Post by punishment on Jun 27, 2009 1:50:40 GMT -5
Try Valkyrie Profile (for the PS1) Great 2D visuals and music :3 *first post *
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Post by Patches on Jun 27, 2009 8:34:40 GMT -5
I've taken the time to be a giant nerd & looked up the official details. I'm mostly right in my interpretations, my only major fuck-ups occuring in other Compilation installments. Now: Anyone who says Jenova is controlling Sephiroth missed A LOT of subtle clues throughout the game. And that's just the thing. For a casual playthrough of the game, I think it's disingenious to hide major aspects of the plot in "subtle clues" that you have to poke around in sidequests to find. That you should be able to understand the big picture just in a linear playthrough, not be forced to go through optional dungeon A and fight monsters B and C after flipping switch D to get into secret room F and put all the books in the right order while turning the lights on and off in a specific sequence and then inputting the password which you have to go through another dungeon to find... just to figure out what the hell is going on. That sort of thing is fine for finding information that fleshes out characters' backstories or getting you good equipment, but not for important plot points that the game makes no sense without. And you're allowed to, I'm just expressing why I don't. And even though his behavior is a big part of it, the fact that everyone coddles him over it makes it doubly-annoying. Especially when Tifa went into Cloud's head and found out he'd been lying about his credentials the entire time, instead of being pissed at him like a normal person, it was just, "Aw, it's okay, at least it was a little bit true." Squall may have been annoyingly angsty, too, but at least the rest of the cast pestered him about it constantly. So even though Squall was a similar character type to Cloud, the fact that the other party members didn't cut him any slack over it and even turned his attitude into sort of a joke made him much more tolerable. I think Penelo and Yuffie are about on equal "annoying" levels. To me, the most annoyingly worthless FF party member ever is Quina from FFIX. Which is a shame since everyone else in FFIX was pretty cool.
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Post by Admiral Lithp on Jun 27, 2009 19:15:22 GMT -5
Perhaps I should clarify: When I say "subtle clues," I don't mean in side quests, which there aren't too many of. Those are used mostly for character backstories & good equipment, like you say. I'm particularly thinking of Lucretia's (or Chaos's, whichever you prefer) Grotto & the Nibelheim Mansion.
When I say "subtle clues," I mean things you encounter in the main game, but aren't necessarily stated outright. Such as my earlier question of, "Why would Jenova control Sephiroth," which of course, there is no good answer to. The "subtle clue" in this case is that it's always Sephiroth who appears to you, & not only that, Sephiroth's main body is found in the Crater. What's the point in controlling something that's encased in materia?
The one time the game is really guilty of what you're saying--& 9 times out of 10, you'll enter this building on your 1st playthrough of the area, anyway--is that a lot of Jenova's powers are covered only in Gast's recordings with Ifalna in a building in Icicle Lodge.
Even so, I personally thought that a lot of things were easy to figure out without poking around, so long as you thought about the plot a little bit. For example, when Sephiroth's movement is accentuated with white flashes, it's fairly obvious that he's a projection of some sort.
Okay.
The problem with your analysis is that Tifa KNEW the information she was getting from Cloud was wrong, from the very beginning. And again, there's a difference between "lying" & what Cloud was doing. Yes, a normal person would be pissed if someone was lying to them about everything, but Cloud was essentially mentally ill. Was she supposed to break his jaw for being confused about his past?
A lot of the driving force behind Tifa's character in FFVII is trying to help Cloud get things together after she finds him passed out at the Sector 7 Train Station. This is because she had feelings for Cloud, which in turn was because she found out he tried to save her when the bridge broke back on Mt. Nibel.
I don't know much about Squall, but I have seen some quotes about what you're referring to. So, since I only know half of what I'm saying, I'm not sure how good this information is, but I see it as this way:
Squall was angsty, knew he was angsty, & came across as such.
Cloud was angsty, thought he was a badass SOLDIER operative, & came across as such.
Most of the characters saw Cloud as someone who should be the leader, because he always seemed calm, collected, & ready to take on danger. Barret didn't see him that way ("you spikey-headed jackass!"), & Red XIII probably just didn't care.
When Cloud found out the truth about his past, he got his act together relatively quickly, because he still needed to beat Sephiroth. Once he's gone, he goes back to his angsty self, which is why he gets a bit more shit from people in Advent Children.
After the Remnants & Sephiroth are both defeated, it's really unclear as to what Cloud's personality is like, him not appearing very much in installments thereafter.
My thing with Penelo is that her only goal was supporting Vaan, & there wasn't much depth to that, anyway. Yuffie at least had the ovaries to steal everyone's materia, & wanted to defend Wutai.
I haven't played IX. Not including spinoffs, the main games I've played are VII, X, & XII. Since Tactics is pretty much main game in length, it's worthy of mention, as well. As such, I don't really know much about IX's characters, except that reading about Kuja, Genesis seems like a toned-down version of him.
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Post by Haseen on Jun 30, 2009 0:52:20 GMT -5
I'm partial to the tales series. I liked the battle system from abyss the best (haven't played vesperia yet), and the story from symphonia. -- One that hasn't been mentioned: Legaia. The first one is on the PS, second one PS2. All your attacks are combos of up/down/left/right, and you gain more hits as you level up. I liked the first one better since you can actually see your little combo bar get longer as you level, and you always seem to be 1 hit short of some awesome combo you want to do. So that last hit finally fits on the bar... and you come up with a BETTER combo if you just had 1 more hit!
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Post by Mantorok on Jul 2, 2009 6:37:26 GMT -5
Another recommendation: Steambot Chronicles on PS2.
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Post by Admiral Lithp on Jul 3, 2009 0:53:40 GMT -5
Err...there any other type of thing you'd like a reccommendation for?
Otherwise, I'm pretty useless, here.
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Post by Haseen on Jul 3, 2009 21:38:04 GMT -5
Midget Bowling [1] Find bowling pins. [2] Find long, smooth area. [3] Find cooperative midget. Protip: Uncooperative midgets become cooperative after the first frame, when they are knocked unconscious.
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