Post by m52nickerson on Jul 6, 2009 0:24:24 GMT -5
OK here is the discussion I have been having at RR. No it is not every post in the thread......because it is 26 pages long. These are just my posts and responses to them.
Also it may be a little confusing because two threads got merged.
I ask that you all please don't, people for their replies.
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Well I normally don't describe my self as an Atheist, more an agnostic. For me life the value that we place upon it. I think that everyone life has value, for me some more then others. That is I place more value on the lives of my family then people I don't know.
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The problem is that science can't as a function of how it works accept God as an answer, since his existence can't be proven. So unexplainable phenomenon don't just remain unexplained until can be explained.
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Science functions just fine without men saying the evidence points to "no God", and it functions just fine without wild eyed speculation towards the origins of things.
If you cannot explain it, then it could be a little skeery if you don't believe in the reality of God. If we count the ways, so far the universes origins are not explained, this solar system origins are not explained, and even the history of the earth is not explained. Science is very precise, and the precision is just not there when it speaks of origins. Its all warm and fuzzy, give me good feelings and stuff. Science, it is not.
Why not throw something out there as plausible, that way you don't need to deal with the "God" thing?
Perhaps my level of science is a tad more critical than yours. I don't really want plausible answers, I want the truth. I'm not finding it in the atheists version of science. I can make my own plausibilities up just fine on my own.
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Hmmm.
How is this not subjective meaninglessness?
Don't really desire to be so blunt, but that is the measuring stick that modern, atheistic scientific inquiry brings to the discussion. Even a form of "everyone doing what is right in his own eyes."
This is a form of scientific inquiry I would like to see an atheist tackle, come to the only conclusion there is, and belly up to its implications, like a man. I get 'feelings of worth' and all that, but no kill or be killed, losing no sleep over you. This is what atheistic science leaves you with. Is it a good feeling? Is it a truthful feeling?
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I did mean that the evidence points to no God, just that science can't say that something happens because of him.
It could be scary if one fears the unknown. Their is no atheists version of science. Some thing is looked at scientifically or not. Science is about seeking the truth. The problem is that some thing are still beyond our understanding. Science works to extend that understanding.
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If not, precisely how does the evidence point to "no God" Make it objective please.
Quote:
Originally Posted by m52nickerson View Post
It could be scary if one fears the unknown. Their is no atheists version of science. Some thing is looked at scientifically or not. Science is about seeking the truth. The problem is that some thing are still beyond our understanding. Science works to extend that understanding.
You haven't paid attention lately to the new scientists afoot...
Science is best described as systematic knowledge. Most things are beyond our understanding, especially the big ones, like life, love, who made me, why am I here, what is the purpose of all this, etc.
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I'm sure it does seem meaningless to you, since it is not meant to be meaningful to you. It is that way I see thing, the way I place value on things.
Do I lose sleep over people I don't know dying, Yes.
Do I feel that sometimes the are justifications to kill, yes.
The value we place on other is not based on any science, but ones beliefs and the beliefs of society as a whole.
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Yes, I meant "didn't". Sorry about that.
No science does not hold the answers to the meaning of life, nor does it seek it. That is left to the theists and philosophers.
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What about other people, other societies who don't place value on human life. What if they don't value your life and decide to blow you off the face of the earth? You can't honestly say they're wrong about that unless there is an objective standard. All you can do is fight back, and its survival of the fittest all over again.
And what if, one day, your society changes its mind about human life? After all, they already changed their minds about the value of life before birth. Why stop there? Why not kill infants if we find out they have a neurological disorder, or if we're just plain sick of their crying? One day society will change its mind again, and if you want to object it will be your opinions versus everyone else's. You won't have a leg to stand on.
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What he said, and...
Its not just to me friend. Something has objective value, or it does not. The synopsis of scientific evolution is that man is a bunch of chemicals and water. We're up to maybe about $7.50, in todays prices.
Of course, if a man is a "living soul", given a spirit by God, contained within a body, its worth is immeasurable. Because of Christ's death on the cross, it becomes immortal. Is there a enough money in the whole universe to measure that value? All men and women, great and small, will be resurrected to stand before God. Some with an advocate, Jesus Christ.
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I can't control what other think. Even without an objective standard on the value of life we can still know what is right and wrong. If nothing else we should tread others as we wish to be treated.
That does not mean I would have to agree with society.
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....or law set forth by a government.
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There is no right and wrong. That implies an objective, moral law that exists independently of the material world. Laws require Lawgivers. If you won't grant the existence of a Lawgiver, then all of your moralizing is just like saying "chocolate is better than vanilla". Different strokes for different folks. Some people treat each other with dignity and respect, others prefer genocide. Who is to say which one is right?
You really have no business using words like "should" or "ought". There is no "should" in your world. You're giving evidence that deep down you know God exists and you know there are objective moral standards.
Whether you agree or disagree with society is irrelevant. If the majority decide to change the laws of society to correspond to a new morality, you won't have any choice in the matter. You'll live by their laws or they'll throw you in jail. Whoever has the power makes the rules in the world of relative morality.
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And what would a government base their laws on? Some whim?
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Then why do atheists always ask why God allows evil if they don't believe there is a God?
They know in the back of their minds God exists because God put it there.
They will be without excuse no matter if they believe it. like it, or admit it.
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You sound old school. Not many of you left. Explain it to your buddies.
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Who do you think thinks like that? Just because someone believes in evolution does not mean they think people are only worth the sum of their parts.
In many ways it is like saying "chocolate is better then vanilla". This is evident in the fact that different cultures, even different people have different ideas about what is right and wrong. Mean there is no universal code. The fact that I can say that something is wrong does not mean deep down I know there is a God, it mean I was raised to believe there is a proper way to behave.
Laws do not dictate morality. Some thing that are legal are immoral, and some thing that are illegal are not immoral.
Ideas the most people can agree on, like not killing others, or stealing. In general laws are made to preventing people from hurting others. This was born out of all of our desires not to be hurt.
They ask because the idea that a benevolent God would allow evil to exist is inane. Perhaps Epicurus stated it best when he asked:
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”
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They ask because they don't understand the ways or purposes of God and they quote foolish lost pagans like Epicurus
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If so foolish why not respond to it? Explain how if someone stands and watches someone die, or get hurt, and do nothing when they could have prevented it are seen as bad, but in the same respect God is not.
Argument such as this are part of the reason people doubt or simply don't believe in God.
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I'm going to take a crack at this; someone correct me if I'm wrong.
God is able to stop our suffering, but can't for a number of reasons. (I know it's kind of contradictory, but keep reading.)
1. We've all sinned and have to face sin's consequences.
2. God can't help those whom reject Him (not sure about this, but pretty sure. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.)
3. Sometimes bad things are blessings in disguise. Someone might have a bad experience, such as a car accident, a foreclosure, etc. but because of that experience they discover Christ. Isn't it better to have one bad experience than to be totally separated from God for all eternity?
But mostly we suffer because we sin.
"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23 KJV
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Hello m52 (sorry to jump into this conversation without proper introduction, I have read your previous posts) -
I think it is important for you to become acquainted with the scripture which addresses the philosophy you have embraced. This is how Paul spoke nearly 2,000 years ago. The Truth is no less applicable today, and people do believe on the basis of his response, even in our generation. Will you read this?
God has provided a way for you to be freed from eternal death:
Acts 17:16-31 (New International Version)
Quote:
16While Paul was waiting for them in Athens, he was greatly distressed to see that the city was full of idols. 17So he reasoned in the synagogue with the Jews and the God-fearing Greeks, as well as in the marketplace day by day with those who happened to be there. 18A group of Epicurean and Stoic philosophers began to dispute with him. Some of them asked, "What is this babbler trying to say?" Others remarked, "He seems to be advocating foreign gods." They said this because Paul was preaching the good news about Jesus and the resurrection. 19Then they took him and brought him to a meeting of the Areopagus, where they said to him, "May we know what this new teaching is that you are presenting? 20You are bringing some strange ideas to our ears, and we want to know what they mean." 21(All the Athenians and the foreigners who lived there spent their time doing nothing but talking about and listening to the latest ideas.)
22Paul then stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus and said: "Men of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious. 23For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO AN UNKNOWN GOD. Now what you worship as something unknown I am going to proclaim to you.
24"The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. 25And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else. 26From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. 27God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. 28'For in him we live and move and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.'
29"Therefore since we are God's offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by man's design and skill. 30In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead."
I care about you enough not to just stand and watch you "die, or get hurt" spiritually, and I don't even know you. God knows everything about you and cares infinitely more...
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Ah, but then the other atheist "argument" is "why would I want to
follow a God who dictates every aspect of my life and wants to force
me to worship Him".
Man naturally doesn't want interference from God.
He created us with the freedom and ability to choose our path.
". . . Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I set before you the way of life, and the way of death."
Jeremiah 21:8
Your choice.
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Who has decided that we have to suffer the consequences of sin? I believe, please correct me if wrong, that would be God. So God has set up a system by which we all sinner and all suffer? Which goes back to "Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent."
If God can't help people who reject him how can you call him Omnipotent?
"“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent."
Yes, I agree some suffering can teach lessons. A child that touches some thing hot learns not to and can prevent them from being more seriously hurt. What lesson does a child who is tortured and then murdered learn? What do we learn, other then some people are evil?
I did read the passage you posted, I have read it before. The crux of it in terms of this discussion seem to me to be "God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us."
The question that begs asking is, why would God feel the need to make people find him, and punish people who do not?
Yes that question is asked by many. It goes to why would God give us free will and the ability to choose, but then punish us for not choosing the path he wishes?
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Ah the classic atheist argument that a loving God is really evil.
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As if nowhere else can you find decisions having consequences? Drive a car into a wall at a high rate of speed, and tell me physics is unjust because of your bad choice.
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I am asking how one says a Benevolent God allows evil and suffering into a world in which he created. I have made no statements that "God is evil". If you get that from my post you are mistaken.
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We don't suffer the consequences of sin because of God, we suffer the consequences of sin because of ourselves. Way back in the beginning Adam and Eve both ate the fruit off the tree that God specifically said off of which not to eat. Does a parent not punish a child when the child disobeys the parent? God was very clear but we disobeyed.
"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23 KJV
I can't speak for everyone (as I haven't experienced being everyone ) but I imagine God gives everyone an equal chance to find Him. There are people whom were on the very edge, about to commit suicide, and have found salvation through Christ. God calls, but people don't always listen.
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God said there would be consequences for eating the fruit, and there were. Remember, "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23 KJV
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No i'm not going to do that. The problem with that argument is that the consequences of not following Gods rules were set by God himself. Who, at any time could change those consequences. The laws of physics can't change themselves. Which again goes back to the question ""Is he able, but not willing?"
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Parents do punish children for not listen. Of course parents do this to keep children safe from harm in a world that they can't control. If a parent leaves a loaded gun on a table and tells the child not to play with it do we call that person a good parent? No. God put the tree and the fruit in the garden, he also put the snake there. He also knew what would happen.
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No He can't change the rules, that would be a betrayal of His nature, it is a perfect analogy. Perfection is the requirement, which we cannot meet. For Him to allow imperfect, unrepentant people into heaven would be contrary to His law.
It is absurd that He bend the rules for people like yourself, who don't even acknowledge His existence.
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He did know, because He's God. But just because He knew what would happen didn't mean He had to stop it. If he stopped it we would no longer have free will, and could no longer (eventually, since we're talking about Genesis) accept Christ and love Him on our own. We'd just be freedomless robots. Do you understand how much love of One's own creations it takes to give them the ability not to love you back?
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If he can't change the rules, then he is not omnipotent. "“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?"
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How much love does it take to give them that option but punish them if they don't?
God not placing that tree in the Garden would not have removed freewill.
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Okay, what are you trying to understand? Why should/would He change His own laws/nature? Are you here to learn or just argue? Because there is plenty of information...
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God couldn't have people in Heaven whom openly reject Him. He also couldn't have sinners, as He is a perfectly, holy, sinless being.
God not placing that tree in the Garden would have removed the ability to choose whether or not we wanted to obey God. It's not obedience if there's no option to disobey.
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I'm trying to understand why a benevolent God would set up his rules as he has. Why he set up a world/rules in which he allows people to suffer. It is perhaps the center of my disbelief.
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It comes back to free will. God gave us the choice to either love Him or reject Him. It wouldn't be love if there was no option to reject. It's the same with humans. You can't force someone to love you.
God set up the rules, but we broke them. It's not God's fault we sinned. But God also sent his only begotten son to die for us so we could have eternal life.
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Why, he is able to do all things. What prevent him from opening heaven to all? Is he unable to do it, or unwilling?
Yes, it would have removed ability to choose to follow that one command. Why place the snake to lures, why not give people more of a will to resist temptation?
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Its your classic trick question.
Its just like the other classic atheist trick question:
"Can God make a rock He cannot lift?"
No matter how you answer either question, its a trap.
I used to think atheists had all these high falutin arguments until the waves started coming from FSTDT. All I see are the same old smoke and mirrors. You guys don't really have any good arguments to back your claims up with.
I don't remember the verse but there is a quote in the OT, "A fool says in his heart, there is no God." It was true then and its true now.
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God can't open Heaven to all because sinners couldn't enter into Heaven, no matter how hard they tried.
Why did God place the snake in the Garden? We don't know. But God knew what He was doing. It seems a little silly to question the reasons why the Creator of the universe did what He did.
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God makes the rules. Not you. You keep trying to find some wiggle room to weasel out of judgment, but this just won't work.
The underlying base of your argument is rebellion and pride.
Stop with the circular arguments. You're repeating yourself. You cannot use a silly argument to paint God as evil.
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“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”
He is both willing and able.
Now, m52nickerson, are you absolutely sure you wish God to remove all evil from the universe at this point? Do you want Him to banish all things that are unrighteous, unholy, and unclean right now?
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Of course, but why would He contradict His own nature/logic/etc...
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That is the difference between many of the people here and many people who don't believe. I can't just except that God has made the world the way it is, with the suffering in it, and still be considered benevolent. Because I will nto except the idea of an evil, or uncaring God, I question his existence.
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I was not mistaken. Here it clearly comes out:
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Again, I'm not trying to paint God as evil. The question is why did a benevolent God make the rules as he did? Why would he make rules that the very people he made are very hard to follow, and then punish those who don't/can't to eternal suffering?
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The answer is simple. God made the word perfect. There was no death, no sadness, no sin; everything was completely perfect. But God also gave us free will, which means we had to have the ability to disobey God. That's why He forbade Adam and Eve from eating from the tree. Guess what we did? We ate from the tree and disobeyed God. We have no one to blame but ourselves.
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Can you, m52nickerson understand an infinite being?
Where were you when he made the earth, or breathed life into all things including you?
I don't think you are competent to even argue with Him.
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Because of the free will. If God didn't give us a chance to totally reject Him there's no way we could every truly love Him.
Actually, God's rules are easy to follow. Repent your sins and accept Christ. It's the easiest and best choice you'll ever make.
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Since I said that I will not except the idea of an evil God, and since I can't find a way to come away with God allowing the people he created to suffer, I question his existence I'm saying he must be evil?
MrMannn you could jump in and tell me how you accept the fact that a benevolent God allows suffering and evil in a world he has control over.
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Q
How could his creation be perfect with the facts that there was a snake to tempt and that Eve would ever choose to eat the fruit?
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Better yet I will show you the key to understanding it all:
www.greatcom.org/english/four.htm
click on the link. You know you want to.
Its a pretty blue link. Click it.
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He is both willing and able.
Now, m52nickerson, are you absolutely sure you wish God to remove all evil from the universe at this point? Do you want Him to banish all things that are unrighteous, unholy, and unclean right now?
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God didn't create us so we could suffer. Did He know we would sin? Yes. Did He cause us to sin? No, we chose it. God doesn't want us to go to Hell for all eternity, He wants people to accept Christ so they will have eternal life.
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I can understand the difference between good and bad, right and wrong. How do we say that letting people suffer when it could be stopped is good?
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Do you expect M52 to really answer. He's not really here to discuss. He thinks he has a trap and he wants to spring it on us. An atheist with a gotcha question and nothing else.
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I'm questioning why he would include them into his creation?
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I gave you a link, click on it. read it.
www.greatcom.org/english/four.htm
here it is again.
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I'm questioning why he would include them into his creation?
Answer the questions, then I'll answer yours.
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I told you he wouldn't answer. He;s here to spring a gotcha question and he has nothing else.
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Do you have rules regarding who comes into your house, or is yours an open door policy? People who hate you, are they allowed in? Come on, you have enough "omnipotence" to govern who steps foot in your door. You have rules, and I venture to guess, you enforce them. Yet you argue against a God, in whom you do not believe, doing the exact same thing?
Illogical.
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He didn't. We did it. We disobeyed God and basically opened up Pandora's Box.
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I see it is a trick because you can't answer it. MrMannn you may be secure in your faith to except what has been written. For myself and others we are not. Saying that all people who ask these questions are attacking your faith but not honestly looking to see if they can be answered serves only the purpose of you not having to look at them.
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a typical nonbeliever question......WHO CARESTHINK ABOUT IT VEWY CAWFEWY, I don't pretend to know the mind of God because......I JUST TRUST IN HIS WAYS. That's all, if you opened yer heart, He'd come in, but yer more stuck on all these stupid questions that back you up in yer unbelief.....YER CHOICEHOPE YOU SEE THE LIGHT, but if you never do
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Also it may be a little confusing because two threads got merged.
I ask that you all please don't, people for their replies.
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Well I normally don't describe my self as an Atheist, more an agnostic. For me life the value that we place upon it. I think that everyone life has value, for me some more then others. That is I place more value on the lives of my family then people I don't know.
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I am happy that you do see it. It may be hard to believe, but not everyone in science 'gets it'. The effects of God are overwhelming. If you couple that with mans incessant need to pursue these things, his condition of guilt and shame and God's description of why man has it, you'll start to understand God a little more better. The Lord does have a way of cementing these things in the mind. Perhaps He will show you more clearly some day soon.
Originally Posted by HeIsEnough View Post
I am happy that you do see it. It may be hard to believe, but not everyone in science 'gets it'. The effects of God are overwhelming. If you couple that with mans incessant need to pursue these things, his condition of guilt and shame and God's description of why man has it, you'll start to understand God a little more better. The Lord does have a way of cementing these things in the mind. Perhaps He will show you more clearly some day soon.
The problem is that science can't as a function of how it works accept God as an answer, since his existence can't be proven. So unexplainable phenomenon don't just remain unexplained until can be explained.
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The problem is that science can't as a function of how it works accept God as an answer, since his existence can't be proven.
Originally Posted by m52nickerson View Post
The problem is that science can't as a function of how it works accept God as an answer, since his existence can't be proven.
Science functions just fine without men saying the evidence points to "no God", and it functions just fine without wild eyed speculation towards the origins of things.
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Originally Posted by m52nickerson View Post
So unexplainable phenomenon don't just remain unexplained until can be explained.
Originally Posted by m52nickerson View Post
So unexplainable phenomenon don't just remain unexplained until can be explained.
If you cannot explain it, then it could be a little skeery if you don't believe in the reality of God. If we count the ways, so far the universes origins are not explained, this solar system origins are not explained, and even the history of the earth is not explained. Science is very precise, and the precision is just not there when it speaks of origins. Its all warm and fuzzy, give me good feelings and stuff. Science, it is not.
Why not throw something out there as plausible, that way you don't need to deal with the "God" thing?
Perhaps my level of science is a tad more critical than yours. I don't really want plausible answers, I want the truth. I'm not finding it in the atheists version of science. I can make my own plausibilities up just fine on my own.
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For me life the value that we place upon it. I think that everyone life has value
Originally Posted by m52nickerson View Post
For me life the value that we place upon it. I think that everyone life has value
Hmmm.
How is this not subjective meaninglessness?
Don't really desire to be so blunt, but that is the measuring stick that modern, atheistic scientific inquiry brings to the discussion. Even a form of "everyone doing what is right in his own eyes."
This is a form of scientific inquiry I would like to see an atheist tackle, come to the only conclusion there is, and belly up to its implications, like a man. I get 'feelings of worth' and all that, but no kill or be killed, losing no sleep over you. This is what atheistic science leaves you with. Is it a good feeling? Is it a truthful feeling?
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Originally Posted by HeIsEnough View Post
Science functions just fine without men saying the evidence points to "no God", and it functions just fine without wild eyed speculation towards the origins of things.
Originally Posted by HeIsEnough View Post
Science functions just fine without men saying the evidence points to "no God", and it functions just fine without wild eyed speculation towards the origins of things.
I did mean that the evidence points to no God, just that science can't say that something happens because of him.
Quote:
If you cannot explain it, then it could be a little skeery if you don't believe in the reality of God. If we count the ways, so far the universes origins are not explained, this solar system origins are not explained, and even the history of the earth is not explained. Science is very precise, and the precision is just not there when it speaks of origins. Its all warm and fuzzy, give me good feelings and stuff. Science, it is not.
Why not throw something out there as plausible, that way you don't need to deal with the "God" thing?
Perhaps my level of science is a tad more critical than yours. I don't really want plausible answers, I want the truth. I'm not finding it in the atheists version of science. I can make my own plausibilities up just fine on my own.
If you cannot explain it, then it could be a little skeery if you don't believe in the reality of God. If we count the ways, so far the universes origins are not explained, this solar system origins are not explained, and even the history of the earth is not explained. Science is very precise, and the precision is just not there when it speaks of origins. Its all warm and fuzzy, give me good feelings and stuff. Science, it is not.
Why not throw something out there as plausible, that way you don't need to deal with the "God" thing?
Perhaps my level of science is a tad more critical than yours. I don't really want plausible answers, I want the truth. I'm not finding it in the atheists version of science. I can make my own plausibilities up just fine on my own.
It could be scary if one fears the unknown. Their is no atheists version of science. Some thing is looked at scientifically or not. Science is about seeking the truth. The problem is that some thing are still beyond our understanding. Science works to extend that understanding.
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I did mean that the evidence points to no God, just that science can't say that something happens because of him.
You meant "didn't" correct?
Originally Posted by m52nickerson View Post
I did mean that the evidence points to no God, just that science can't say that something happens because of him.
You meant "didn't" correct?
If not, precisely how does the evidence point to "no God" Make it objective please.
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Originally Posted by m52nickerson View Post
It could be scary if one fears the unknown. Their is no atheists version of science. Some thing is looked at scientifically or not. Science is about seeking the truth. The problem is that some thing are still beyond our understanding. Science works to extend that understanding.
You haven't paid attention lately to the new scientists afoot...
Science is best described as systematic knowledge. Most things are beyond our understanding, especially the big ones, like life, love, who made me, why am I here, what is the purpose of all this, etc.
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I'm sure it does seem meaningless to you, since it is not meant to be meaningful to you. It is that way I see thing, the way I place value on things.
Do I lose sleep over people I don't know dying, Yes.
Do I feel that sometimes the are justifications to kill, yes.
The value we place on other is not based on any science, but ones beliefs and the beliefs of society as a whole.
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You meant "didn't" correct?
If not, precisely how does the evidence point to "no God" Make it objective please.
Originally Posted by HeIsEnough View Post
You meant "didn't" correct?
If not, precisely how does the evidence point to "no God" Make it objective please.
Yes, I meant "didn't". Sorry about that.
Quote:
You haven't paid attention lately to the new scientists afoot...
Science is best described as systematic knowledge. Most things are beyond our understanding, especially the big ones, like life, love, who made me, why am I here, what is the purpose of all this, etc.
You haven't paid attention lately to the new scientists afoot...
Science is best described as systematic knowledge. Most things are beyond our understanding, especially the big ones, like life, love, who made me, why am I here, what is the purpose of all this, etc.
No science does not hold the answers to the meaning of life, nor does it seek it. That is left to the theists and philosophers.
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I'm sure it does seem meaningless to you, since it is not meant to be meaningful to you. It is that way I see thing, the way I place value on things.
.....
The value we place on other is not based on any science, but ones beliefs and the beliefs of society as a whole.
Originally Posted by m52nickerson View Post
I'm sure it does seem meaningless to you, since it is not meant to be meaningful to you. It is that way I see thing, the way I place value on things.
.....
The value we place on other is not based on any science, but ones beliefs and the beliefs of society as a whole.
What about other people, other societies who don't place value on human life. What if they don't value your life and decide to blow you off the face of the earth? You can't honestly say they're wrong about that unless there is an objective standard. All you can do is fight back, and its survival of the fittest all over again.
And what if, one day, your society changes its mind about human life? After all, they already changed their minds about the value of life before birth. Why stop there? Why not kill infants if we find out they have a neurological disorder, or if we're just plain sick of their crying? One day society will change its mind again, and if you want to object it will be your opinions versus everyone else's. You won't have a leg to stand on.
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What he said, and...
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Originally Posted by m52nickerson View Post
I'm sure it does seem meaningless to you
Originally Posted by m52nickerson View Post
I'm sure it does seem meaningless to you
Its not just to me friend. Something has objective value, or it does not. The synopsis of scientific evolution is that man is a bunch of chemicals and water. We're up to maybe about $7.50, in todays prices.
Of course, if a man is a "living soul", given a spirit by God, contained within a body, its worth is immeasurable. Because of Christ's death on the cross, it becomes immortal. Is there a enough money in the whole universe to measure that value? All men and women, great and small, will be resurrected to stand before God. Some with an advocate, Jesus Christ.
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What about other people, other societies who don't place value on human life. What if they don't value your life and decide to blow you off the face of the earth? You can't honestly say they're wrong about that unless there is an objective standard. All you can do is fight back, and its survival of the fittest all over again.
Originally Posted by The Liquidator View Post
What about other people, other societies who don't place value on human life. What if they don't value your life and decide to blow you off the face of the earth? You can't honestly say they're wrong about that unless there is an objective standard. All you can do is fight back, and its survival of the fittest all over again.
I can't control what other think. Even without an objective standard on the value of life we can still know what is right and wrong. If nothing else we should tread others as we wish to be treated.
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Originally Posted by The Liquidator View Post
And what if, one day, your society changes its mind about human life? After all, they already changed their minds about the value of life before birth. Why stop there? Why not kill infants if we find out they have a neurological disorder, or if we're just plain sick of their crying? One day society will change its mind again, and if you want to object it will be your opinions versus everyone else's. You won't have a leg to stand on.
Originally Posted by The Liquidator View Post
And what if, one day, your society changes its mind about human life? After all, they already changed their minds about the value of life before birth. Why stop there? Why not kill infants if we find out they have a neurological disorder, or if we're just plain sick of their crying? One day society will change its mind again, and if you want to object it will be your opinions versus everyone else's. You won't have a leg to stand on.
That does not mean I would have to agree with society.
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If you take the subjective angle, that all things have meaning or value because you or I give it value, then ultimately, we end up with a society in anarchy...each doing whatever he pleases or values. There must be an absolute in order for that to be avoided. That absolute is a Supreme Being, who set the standard.
Originally Posted by His Bride View Post
If you take the subjective angle, that all things have meaning or value because you or I give it value, then ultimately, we end up with a society in anarchy...each doing whatever he pleases or values. There must be an absolute in order for that to be avoided. That absolute is a Supreme Being, who set the standard.
....or law set forth by a government.
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I can't control what other think. Even without an objective standard on the value of life we can still know what is right and wrong.
Originally Posted by m52nickerson View Post
I can't control what other think. Even without an objective standard on the value of life we can still know what is right and wrong.
There is no right and wrong. That implies an objective, moral law that exists independently of the material world. Laws require Lawgivers. If you won't grant the existence of a Lawgiver, then all of your moralizing is just like saying "chocolate is better than vanilla". Different strokes for different folks. Some people treat each other with dignity and respect, others prefer genocide. Who is to say which one is right?
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Originally Posted by m52nickerson View Post
If nothing else we should tread others as we wish to be treated.
Originally Posted by m52nickerson View Post
If nothing else we should tread others as we wish to be treated.
You really have no business using words like "should" or "ought". There is no "should" in your world. You're giving evidence that deep down you know God exists and you know there are objective moral standards.
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Originally Posted by m52nickerson View Post
That does not mean I would have to agree with society.
Originally Posted by m52nickerson View Post
That does not mean I would have to agree with society.
Whether you agree or disagree with society is irrelevant. If the majority decide to change the laws of society to correspond to a new morality, you won't have any choice in the matter. You'll live by their laws or they'll throw you in jail. Whoever has the power makes the rules in the world of relative morality.
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....or law set forth by a government.
Originally Posted by m52nickerson View Post
....or law set forth by a government.
And what would a government base their laws on? Some whim?
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Yes, I meant "didn't". Sorry about that.
No science does not hold the answers to the meaning of life, nor does it seek it. That is left to the theists and philosophers.
Originally Posted by m52nickerson View Post
Yes, I meant "didn't". Sorry about that.
No science does not hold the answers to the meaning of life, nor does it seek it. That is left to the theists and philosophers.
Then why do atheists always ask why God allows evil if they don't believe there is a God?
They know in the back of their minds God exists because God put it there.
They will be without excuse no matter if they believe it. like it, or admit it.
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No science does not hold the answers to the meaning of life, nor does it seek it. That is left to the theists and philosophers.
Originally Posted by m52nickerson View Post
No science does not hold the answers to the meaning of life, nor does it seek it. That is left to the theists and philosophers.
You sound old school. Not many of you left. Explain it to your buddies.
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Its not just to me friend. Something has objective value, or it does not. The synopsis of scientific evolution is that man is a bunch of chemicals and water. We're up to maybe about $7.50, in todays prices.
Of course, if a man is a "living soul", given a spirit by God, contained within a body, its worth is immeasurable. Because of Christ's death on the cross, it becomes immortal. Is there a enough money in the whole universe to measure that value? All men and women, great and small, will be resurrected to stand before God. Some with an advocate, Jesus Christ.
Originally Posted by HeIsEnough View Post
Its not just to me friend. Something has objective value, or it does not. The synopsis of scientific evolution is that man is a bunch of chemicals and water. We're up to maybe about $7.50, in todays prices.
Of course, if a man is a "living soul", given a spirit by God, contained within a body, its worth is immeasurable. Because of Christ's death on the cross, it becomes immortal. Is there a enough money in the whole universe to measure that value? All men and women, great and small, will be resurrected to stand before God. Some with an advocate, Jesus Christ.
Who do you think thinks like that? Just because someone believes in evolution does not mean they think people are only worth the sum of their parts.
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Originally Posted by The Liquidator View Post
There is no right and wrong. That implies an objective, moral law that exists independently of the material world. Laws require Lawgivers. If you won't grant the existence of a Lawgiver, then all of your moralizing is just like saying "chocolate is better than vanilla". Different strokes for different folks. Some people treat each other with dignity and respect, others prefer genocide. Who is to say which one is right?
You really have no business using words like "should" or "ought". There is no "should" in your world. You're giving evidence that deep down you know God exists and you know there are objective moral standards.
Whether you agree or disagree with society is irrelevant. If the majority decide to change the laws of society to correspond to a new morality, you won't have any choice in the matter. You'll live by their laws or they'll throw you in jail. Whoever has the power makes the rules in the world of relative morality.
Originally Posted by The Liquidator View Post
There is no right and wrong. That implies an objective, moral law that exists independently of the material world. Laws require Lawgivers. If you won't grant the existence of a Lawgiver, then all of your moralizing is just like saying "chocolate is better than vanilla". Different strokes for different folks. Some people treat each other with dignity and respect, others prefer genocide. Who is to say which one is right?
You really have no business using words like "should" or "ought". There is no "should" in your world. You're giving evidence that deep down you know God exists and you know there are objective moral standards.
Whether you agree or disagree with society is irrelevant. If the majority decide to change the laws of society to correspond to a new morality, you won't have any choice in the matter. You'll live by their laws or they'll throw you in jail. Whoever has the power makes the rules in the world of relative morality.
In many ways it is like saying "chocolate is better then vanilla". This is evident in the fact that different cultures, even different people have different ideas about what is right and wrong. Mean there is no universal code. The fact that I can say that something is wrong does not mean deep down I know there is a God, it mean I was raised to believe there is a proper way to behave.
Laws do not dictate morality. Some thing that are legal are immoral, and some thing that are illegal are not immoral.
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Originally Posted by His Bride View Post
And what would a government base their laws on? Some whim?
Originally Posted by His Bride View Post
And what would a government base their laws on? Some whim?
Ideas the most people can agree on, like not killing others, or stealing. In general laws are made to preventing people from hurting others. This was born out of all of our desires not to be hurt.
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Originally Posted by Buzzardhut View Post
Then why do atheists always ask why God allows evil if they don't believe there is a God?
They know in the back of their minds God exists because God put it there.
They will be without excuse no matter if they believe it. like it, or admit it.
Originally Posted by Buzzardhut View Post
Then why do atheists always ask why God allows evil if they don't believe there is a God?
They know in the back of their minds God exists because God put it there.
They will be without excuse no matter if they believe it. like it, or admit it.
They ask because the idea that a benevolent God would allow evil to exist is inane. Perhaps Epicurus stated it best when he asked:
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”
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Originally Posted by m52nickerson View Post
They ask because the idea that a benevolent God would allow evil to exist is inane. Perhaps Epicurus stated it best when he asked:
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”
Originally Posted by m52nickerson View Post
They ask because the idea that a benevolent God would allow evil to exist is inane. Perhaps Epicurus stated it best when he asked:
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”
They ask because they don't understand the ways or purposes of God and they quote foolish lost pagans like Epicurus
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They ask because they don't understand the ways or purposes of God and they quote foolish lost pagans like Epicurus
Originally Posted by Buzzardhut View Post
They ask because they don't understand the ways or purposes of God and they quote foolish lost pagans like Epicurus
If so foolish why not respond to it? Explain how if someone stands and watches someone die, or get hurt, and do nothing when they could have prevented it are seen as bad, but in the same respect God is not.
Argument such as this are part of the reason people doubt or simply don't believe in God.
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Originally Posted by m52nickerson View Post
If so foolish why not respond to it? Explain how if someone stands and watches someone die, or get hurt, and do nothing when they could have prevented it are seen as bad, but in the same respect God is not.
Argument such as this are part of the reason people doubt or simply don't believe in God.
Originally Posted by m52nickerson View Post
If so foolish why not respond to it? Explain how if someone stands and watches someone die, or get hurt, and do nothing when they could have prevented it are seen as bad, but in the same respect God is not.
Argument such as this are part of the reason people doubt or simply don't believe in God.
I'm going to take a crack at this; someone correct me if I'm wrong.
God is able to stop our suffering, but can't for a number of reasons. (I know it's kind of contradictory, but keep reading.)
1. We've all sinned and have to face sin's consequences.
2. God can't help those whom reject Him (not sure about this, but pretty sure. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.)
3. Sometimes bad things are blessings in disguise. Someone might have a bad experience, such as a car accident, a foreclosure, etc. but because of that experience they discover Christ. Isn't it better to have one bad experience than to be totally separated from God for all eternity?
But mostly we suffer because we sin.
"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23 KJV
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Originally Posted by m52nickerson View Post
If so foolish why not respond to it? Explain how if someone stands and watches someone die, or get hurt, and do nothing when they could have prevented it are seen as bad, but in the same respect God is not.
Argument such as this are part of the reason people doubt or simply don't believe in God.
Originally Posted by m52nickerson View Post
If so foolish why not respond to it? Explain how if someone stands and watches someone die, or get hurt, and do nothing when they could have prevented it are seen as bad, but in the same respect God is not.
Argument such as this are part of the reason people doubt or simply don't believe in God.
Hello m52 (sorry to jump into this conversation without proper introduction, I have read your previous posts) -
I think it is important for you to become acquainted with the scripture which addresses the philosophy you have embraced. This is how Paul spoke nearly 2,000 years ago. The Truth is no less applicable today, and people do believe on the basis of his response, even in our generation. Will you read this?
God has provided a way for you to be freed from eternal death:
Acts 17:16-31 (New International Version)
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16While Paul was waiting for them in Athens, he was greatly distressed to see that the city was full of idols. 17So he reasoned in the synagogue with the Jews and the God-fearing Greeks, as well as in the marketplace day by day with those who happened to be there. 18A group of Epicurean and Stoic philosophers began to dispute with him. Some of them asked, "What is this babbler trying to say?" Others remarked, "He seems to be advocating foreign gods." They said this because Paul was preaching the good news about Jesus and the resurrection. 19Then they took him and brought him to a meeting of the Areopagus, where they said to him, "May we know what this new teaching is that you are presenting? 20You are bringing some strange ideas to our ears, and we want to know what they mean." 21(All the Athenians and the foreigners who lived there spent their time doing nothing but talking about and listening to the latest ideas.)
22Paul then stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus and said: "Men of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious. 23For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO AN UNKNOWN GOD. Now what you worship as something unknown I am going to proclaim to you.
24"The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. 25And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else. 26From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. 27God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. 28'For in him we live and move and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.'
29"Therefore since we are God's offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by man's design and skill. 30In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead."
I care about you enough not to just stand and watch you "die, or get hurt" spiritually, and I don't even know you. God knows everything about you and cares infinitely more...
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Originally Posted by m52nickerson View Post
Explain how if someone stands and watches someone die, or get hurt, and do nothing when they could have prevented it are seen as bad, but in the same respect God is not.
Argument such as this are part of the reason people doubt or simply don't believe in God.
Originally Posted by m52nickerson View Post
Explain how if someone stands and watches someone die, or get hurt, and do nothing when they could have prevented it are seen as bad, but in the same respect God is not.
Argument such as this are part of the reason people doubt or simply don't believe in God.
Ah, but then the other atheist "argument" is "why would I want to
follow a God who dictates every aspect of my life and wants to force
me to worship Him".
Man naturally doesn't want interference from God.
He created us with the freedom and ability to choose our path.
". . . Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I set before you the way of life, and the way of death."
Jeremiah 21:8
Your choice.
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Originally Posted by ThePenguin View Post
I'm going to take a crack at this; someone correct me if I'm wrong.
God is able to stop our suffering, but can't for a number of reasons. (I know it's kind of contradictory, but keep reading.)
1. We've all sinned and have to face sin's consequences.
2. God can't help those whom reject Him (not sure about this, but pretty sure. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.)
3. Sometimes bad things are blessings in disguise. Someone might have a bad experience, such as a car accident, a foreclosure, etc. but because of that experience they discover Christ. Isn't it better to have one bad experience than to be totally separated from God for all eternity?
But mostly we suffer because we sin.
"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23 KJV
Originally Posted by ThePenguin View Post
I'm going to take a crack at this; someone correct me if I'm wrong.
God is able to stop our suffering, but can't for a number of reasons. (I know it's kind of contradictory, but keep reading.)
1. We've all sinned and have to face sin's consequences.
2. God can't help those whom reject Him (not sure about this, but pretty sure. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.)
3. Sometimes bad things are blessings in disguise. Someone might have a bad experience, such as a car accident, a foreclosure, etc. but because of that experience they discover Christ. Isn't it better to have one bad experience than to be totally separated from God for all eternity?
But mostly we suffer because we sin.
"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23 KJV
Who has decided that we have to suffer the consequences of sin? I believe, please correct me if wrong, that would be God. So God has set up a system by which we all sinner and all suffer? Which goes back to "Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent."
If God can't help people who reject him how can you call him Omnipotent?
"“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent."
Yes, I agree some suffering can teach lessons. A child that touches some thing hot learns not to and can prevent them from being more seriously hurt. What lesson does a child who is tortured and then murdered learn? What do we learn, other then some people are evil?
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Originally Posted by Little king View Post
Hello m52 (sorry to jump into this conversation without proper introduction, I have read your previous posts) -
I think it is important for you to become acquainted with the scripture which addresses the philosophy you have embraced. This is how Paul spoke nearly 2,000 years ago. The Truth is no less applicable today, and people do believe on the basis of his response, even in our generation. Will you read this?
God has provided a way for you to be freed from eternal death:
Acts 17:16-31 (New International Version)
I care about you enough not to just stand and watch you "die, or get hurt" spiritually, and I don't even know you. God knows everything about you and cares infinitely more...
Hello Little King, don't worry about just jumping in. Discussion such as this I why I'm hear.
Originally Posted by Little king View Post
Hello m52 (sorry to jump into this conversation without proper introduction, I have read your previous posts) -
I think it is important for you to become acquainted with the scripture which addresses the philosophy you have embraced. This is how Paul spoke nearly 2,000 years ago. The Truth is no less applicable today, and people do believe on the basis of his response, even in our generation. Will you read this?
God has provided a way for you to be freed from eternal death:
Acts 17:16-31 (New International Version)
I care about you enough not to just stand and watch you "die, or get hurt" spiritually, and I don't even know you. God knows everything about you and cares infinitely more...
Hello Little King, don't worry about just jumping in. Discussion such as this I why I'm hear.
I did read the passage you posted, I have read it before. The crux of it in terms of this discussion seem to me to be "God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us."
The question that begs asking is, why would God feel the need to make people find him, and punish people who do not?
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Originally Posted by ATYCLB View Post
Ah, but then the other atheist "argument" is "why would I want to
follow a God who dictates every aspect of my life and wants to force
me to worship Him".
Man naturally doesn't want interference from God.
He created us with the freedom and ability to choose our path.
". . . Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I set before you the way of life, and the way of death."
Jeremiah 21:8
Your choice.
Originally Posted by ATYCLB View Post
Ah, but then the other atheist "argument" is "why would I want to
follow a God who dictates every aspect of my life and wants to force
me to worship Him".
Man naturally doesn't want interference from God.
He created us with the freedom and ability to choose our path.
". . . Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I set before you the way of life, and the way of death."
Jeremiah 21:8
Your choice.
Yes that question is asked by many. It goes to why would God give us free will and the ability to choose, but then punish us for not choosing the path he wishes?
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Ah the classic atheist argument that a loving God is really evil.
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Yes that question is asked by many. It goes to why would God give us free will and the ability to choose, but then punish us for not choosing the path he wishes?
Originally Posted by m52nickerson View Post
Yes that question is asked by many. It goes to why would God give us free will and the ability to choose, but then punish us for not choosing the path he wishes?
As if nowhere else can you find decisions having consequences? Drive a car into a wall at a high rate of speed, and tell me physics is unjust because of your bad choice.
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Ah the classic atheist argument that a loving God is really evil.
Originally Posted by MrMannn View Post
Ah the classic atheist argument that a loving God is really evil.
I am asking how one says a Benevolent God allows evil and suffering into a world in which he created. I have made no statements that "God is evil". If you get that from my post you are mistaken.
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Who has decided that we have to suffer the consequences of sin? I believe, please correct me if wrong, that would be God. So God has set up a system by which we all sinner and all suffer? Which goes back to "Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent."
Who has decided that we have to suffer the consequences of sin? I believe, please correct me if wrong, that would be God. So God has set up a system by which we all sinner and all suffer? Which goes back to "Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent."
We don't suffer the consequences of sin because of God, we suffer the consequences of sin because of ourselves. Way back in the beginning Adam and Eve both ate the fruit off the tree that God specifically said off of which not to eat. Does a parent not punish a child when the child disobeys the parent? God was very clear but we disobeyed.
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What lesson does a child who is tortured and then murdered learn? What do we learn, other then some people are evil?
What lesson does a child who is tortured and then murdered learn? What do we learn, other then some people are evil?
"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23 KJV
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The question that begs asking is, why would God feel the need to make people find him, and punish people who do not?
The question that begs asking is, why would God feel the need to make people find him, and punish people who do not?
I can't speak for everyone (as I haven't experienced being everyone ) but I imagine God gives everyone an equal chance to find Him. There are people whom were on the very edge, about to commit suicide, and have found salvation through Christ. God calls, but people don't always listen.
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I am asking how one says a Benevolent God allows evil and suffering into a world in which he created. I have made no statements that "God is evil". If you get that from my post you are mistaken.
Originally Posted by m52nickerson View Post
I am asking how one says a Benevolent God allows evil and suffering into a world in which he created. I have made no statements that "God is evil". If you get that from my post you are mistaken.
God said there would be consequences for eating the fruit, and there were. Remember, "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23 KJV
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As if nowhere else can you find decisions having consequences? Drive a car into a wall at a high rate of speed, and tell me physics is unjust because of your bad choice.
Originally Posted by OnceWasLost View Post
As if nowhere else can you find decisions having consequences? Drive a car into a wall at a high rate of speed, and tell me physics is unjust because of your bad choice.
No i'm not going to do that. The problem with that argument is that the consequences of not following Gods rules were set by God himself. Who, at any time could change those consequences. The laws of physics can't change themselves. Which again goes back to the question ""Is he able, but not willing?"
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Originally Posted by ThePenguin View Post
We don't suffer the consequences of sin because of God, we suffer the consequences of sin because of ourselves. Way back in the beginning Adam and Eve both ate the fruit off the tree that God specifically said off of which not to eat. Does a parent not punish a child when the child disobeys the parent? God was very clear but we disobeyed.
"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23 KJV
I can't speak for everyone (as I haven't experienced being everyone ) but I imagine God gives everyone an equal chance to find Him. There are people whom were on the very edge, about to commit suicide, and have found salvation through Christ. God calls, but people don't always listen.
Originally Posted by ThePenguin View Post
We don't suffer the consequences of sin because of God, we suffer the consequences of sin because of ourselves. Way back in the beginning Adam and Eve both ate the fruit off the tree that God specifically said off of which not to eat. Does a parent not punish a child when the child disobeys the parent? God was very clear but we disobeyed.
"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23 KJV
I can't speak for everyone (as I haven't experienced being everyone ) but I imagine God gives everyone an equal chance to find Him. There are people whom were on the very edge, about to commit suicide, and have found salvation through Christ. God calls, but people don't always listen.
Parents do punish children for not listen. Of course parents do this to keep children safe from harm in a world that they can't control. If a parent leaves a loaded gun on a table and tells the child not to play with it do we call that person a good parent? No. God put the tree and the fruit in the garden, he also put the snake there. He also knew what would happen.
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No i'm not going to do that. The problem with that argument is that the consequences of not following Gods rules were set by God himself. Who, at any time could change those consequences. The laws of physics can't change themselves. Which again goes back to the question ""Is he able, but not willing?"
Originally Posted by m52nickerson View Post
No i'm not going to do that. The problem with that argument is that the consequences of not following Gods rules were set by God himself. Who, at any time could change those consequences. The laws of physics can't change themselves. Which again goes back to the question ""Is he able, but not willing?"
No He can't change the rules, that would be a betrayal of His nature, it is a perfect analogy. Perfection is the requirement, which we cannot meet. For Him to allow imperfect, unrepentant people into heaven would be contrary to His law.
It is absurd that He bend the rules for people like yourself, who don't even acknowledge His existence.
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Originally Posted by m52nickerson View Post
Parents do punish children for not listen. Of course parents do this to keep children safe from harm in a world that they can't control. If a parent leaves a loaded gun on a table and tells the child not to play with it do we call that person a good parent? No. God put the tree and the fruit in the garden, he also put the snake there. He also knew what would happen.
Originally Posted by m52nickerson View Post
Parents do punish children for not listen. Of course parents do this to keep children safe from harm in a world that they can't control. If a parent leaves a loaded gun on a table and tells the child not to play with it do we call that person a good parent? No. God put the tree and the fruit in the garden, he also put the snake there. He also knew what would happen.
He did know, because He's God. But just because He knew what would happen didn't mean He had to stop it. If he stopped it we would no longer have free will, and could no longer (eventually, since we're talking about Genesis) accept Christ and love Him on our own. We'd just be freedomless robots. Do you understand how much love of One's own creations it takes to give them the ability not to love you back?
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Originally Posted by OnceWasLost View Post
No He can't change the rules, that would be a betrayal of His nature, it is a perfect analogy. Perfection is the requirement, which we cannot meet. For Him to allow imperfect, unrepentant people into heaven would be contrary to His law.
It is absurd that He bend the rules for people like yourself, who don't even acknowledge His existence.
Originally Posted by OnceWasLost View Post
No He can't change the rules, that would be a betrayal of His nature, it is a perfect analogy. Perfection is the requirement, which we cannot meet. For Him to allow imperfect, unrepentant people into heaven would be contrary to His law.
It is absurd that He bend the rules for people like yourself, who don't even acknowledge His existence.
If he can't change the rules, then he is not omnipotent. "“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?"
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Originally Posted by ThePenguin View Post
He did know, because He's God. But just because He knew what would happen didn't mean He had to stop it. If he stopped it we would no longer have free will, and could no longer (eventually, since we're talking about Genesis) accept Christ and love Him on our own. We'd just be freedomless robots. Do you understand how much love of One's own creations it takes to give them the ability not to love you back?
Originally Posted by ThePenguin View Post
He did know, because He's God. But just because He knew what would happen didn't mean He had to stop it. If he stopped it we would no longer have free will, and could no longer (eventually, since we're talking about Genesis) accept Christ and love Him on our own. We'd just be freedomless robots. Do you understand how much love of One's own creations it takes to give them the ability not to love you back?
How much love does it take to give them that option but punish them if they don't?
God not placing that tree in the Garden would not have removed freewill.
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If he can't change the rules, then he is not omnipotent. "“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?"
Originally Posted by m52nickerson View Post
If he can't change the rules, then he is not omnipotent. "“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?"
Okay, what are you trying to understand? Why should/would He change His own laws/nature? Are you here to learn or just argue? Because there is plenty of information...
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How much love does it take to give them that option but punish them if they don't?
God not placing that tree in the Garden would not have removed freewill.
Originally Posted by m52nickerson View Post
How much love does it take to give them that option but punish them if they don't?
God not placing that tree in the Garden would not have removed freewill.
God couldn't have people in Heaven whom openly reject Him. He also couldn't have sinners, as He is a perfectly, holy, sinless being.
God not placing that tree in the Garden would have removed the ability to choose whether or not we wanted to obey God. It's not obedience if there's no option to disobey.
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Okay, what are you trying to understand? Why should/would He change His own laws/nature? Are you here to learn or just argue? Because there is plenty of information...
Originally Posted by Zerozx View Post
Okay, what are you trying to understand? Why should/would He change His own laws/nature? Are you here to learn or just argue? Because there is plenty of information...
I'm trying to understand why a benevolent God would set up his rules as he has. Why he set up a world/rules in which he allows people to suffer. It is perhaps the center of my disbelief.
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I'm trying to understand why a benevolent God would set up his rules as he has. Why he set up a world/rules in which he allows people to suffer. It is perhaps the center of my disbelief.
Originally Posted by m52nickerson View Post
I'm trying to understand why a benevolent God would set up his rules as he has. Why he set up a world/rules in which he allows people to suffer. It is perhaps the center of my disbelief.
It comes back to free will. God gave us the choice to either love Him or reject Him. It wouldn't be love if there was no option to reject. It's the same with humans. You can't force someone to love you.
God set up the rules, but we broke them. It's not God's fault we sinned. But God also sent his only begotten son to die for us so we could have eternal life.
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Originally Posted by ThePenguin View Post
God couldn't have people in Heaven whom openly reject Him. He also couldn't have sinners, as He is a perfectly, holy, sinless being.
God not placing that tree in the Garden would have removed the ability to choose whether or not we wanted to obey God. It's not obedience if there's no option to disobey.
Originally Posted by ThePenguin View Post
God couldn't have people in Heaven whom openly reject Him. He also couldn't have sinners, as He is a perfectly, holy, sinless being.
God not placing that tree in the Garden would have removed the ability to choose whether or not we wanted to obey God. It's not obedience if there's no option to disobey.
Why, he is able to do all things. What prevent him from opening heaven to all? Is he unable to do it, or unwilling?
Yes, it would have removed ability to choose to follow that one command. Why place the snake to lures, why not give people more of a will to resist temptation?
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I am asking how one says a Benevolent God allows evil and suffering into a world in which he created. I have made no statements that "God is evil". If you get that from my post you are mistaken.
Originally Posted by m52nickerson View Post
I am asking how one says a Benevolent God allows evil and suffering into a world in which he created. I have made no statements that "God is evil". If you get that from my post you are mistaken.
Its your classic trick question.
Quote:
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”
Its just like the other classic atheist trick question:
"Can God make a rock He cannot lift?"
No matter how you answer either question, its a trap.
I used to think atheists had all these high falutin arguments until the waves started coming from FSTDT. All I see are the same old smoke and mirrors. You guys don't really have any good arguments to back your claims up with.
I don't remember the verse but there is a quote in the OT, "A fool says in his heart, there is no God." It was true then and its true now.
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Why, he is able to do all things. What prevent him from opening heaven to all? Is he unable to do it, or unwilling?
Yes, it would have removed ability to choose to follow that one command. Why place the snake to lures, why not give people more of a will to resist temptation?
Originally Posted by m52nickerson View Post
Why, he is able to do all things. What prevent him from opening heaven to all? Is he unable to do it, or unwilling?
Yes, it would have removed ability to choose to follow that one command. Why place the snake to lures, why not give people more of a will to resist temptation?
God can't open Heaven to all because sinners couldn't enter into Heaven, no matter how hard they tried.
Why did God place the snake in the Garden? We don't know. But God knew what He was doing. It seems a little silly to question the reasons why the Creator of the universe did what He did.
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Why, he is able to do all things. What prevent him from opening heaven to all? Is he unable to do it, or unwilling?
Yes, it would have removed ability to choose to follow that one command. Why place the snake to lures, why not give people more of a will to resist temptation?
Originally Posted by m52nickerson View Post
Why, he is able to do all things. What prevent him from opening heaven to all? Is he unable to do it, or unwilling?
Yes, it would have removed ability to choose to follow that one command. Why place the snake to lures, why not give people more of a will to resist temptation?
God makes the rules. Not you. You keep trying to find some wiggle room to weasel out of judgment, but this just won't work.
The underlying base of your argument is rebellion and pride.
Stop with the circular arguments. You're repeating yourself. You cannot use a silly argument to paint God as evil.
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“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”
He is both willing and able.
Now, m52nickerson, are you absolutely sure you wish God to remove all evil from the universe at this point? Do you want Him to banish all things that are unrighteous, unholy, and unclean right now?
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Why, he is able to do all things. What prevent him from opening heaven to all? Is he unable to do it, or unwilling?
Yes, it would have removed ability to choose to follow that one command. Why place the snake to lures, why not give people more of a will to resist temptation?
Originally Posted by m52nickerson View Post
Why, he is able to do all things. What prevent him from opening heaven to all? Is he unable to do it, or unwilling?
Yes, it would have removed ability to choose to follow that one command. Why place the snake to lures, why not give people more of a will to resist temptation?
Of course, but why would He contradict His own nature/logic/etc...
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None of us as children of His understand why He did things the way He did, but thru His Word, we understand that only He knows. We don't care about why He chose this way, we just know He has a plan we can trust.
Originally Posted by LookingUplinda View Post
None of us as children of His understand why He did things the way He did, but thru His Word, we understand that only He knows. We don't care about why He chose this way, we just know He has a plan we can trust.
That is the difference between many of the people here and many people who don't believe. I can't just except that God has made the world the way it is, with the suffering in it, and still be considered benevolent. Because I will nto except the idea of an evil, or uncaring God, I question his existence.
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I am asking how one says a Benevolent God allows evil and suffering into a world in which he created. I have made no statements that "God is evil". If you get that from my post you are mistaken.
Originally Posted by m52nickerson View Post
I am asking how one says a Benevolent God allows evil and suffering into a world in which he created. I have made no statements that "God is evil". If you get that from my post you are mistaken.
I was not mistaken. Here it clearly comes out:
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Originally Posted by m52nickerson View Post
That is the difference between many of the people here and many people who don't believe. I can't just except that God has made the world the way it is, with the suffering in it, and still be considered benevolent. Because I will nto except the idea of an evil, or uncaring God, I question his existence.
Originally Posted by m52nickerson View Post
That is the difference between many of the people here and many people who don't believe. I can't just except that God has made the world the way it is, with the suffering in it, and still be considered benevolent. Because I will nto except the idea of an evil, or uncaring God, I question his existence.
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Originally Posted by MrMannn View Post
God makes the rules. Not you. You keep trying to find some wiggle room to weasel out of judgment, but this just won't work.
The underlying base of your argument is rebellion and pride.
Stop with the circular arguments. You're repeating yourself. You cannot use a silly argument to paint God as evil.
Originally Posted by MrMannn View Post
God makes the rules. Not you. You keep trying to find some wiggle room to weasel out of judgment, but this just won't work.
The underlying base of your argument is rebellion and pride.
Stop with the circular arguments. You're repeating yourself. You cannot use a silly argument to paint God as evil.
Again, I'm not trying to paint God as evil. The question is why did a benevolent God make the rules as he did? Why would he make rules that the very people he made are very hard to follow, and then punish those who don't/can't to eternal suffering?
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Originally Posted by m52nickerson View Post
That is the difference between many of the people here and many people who don't believe. I can't just except that God has made the world the way it is, with the suffering in it, and still be considered benevolent. Because I will nto except the idea of an evil, or uncaring God, I question his existence.
Originally Posted by m52nickerson View Post
That is the difference between many of the people here and many people who don't believe. I can't just except that God has made the world the way it is, with the suffering in it, and still be considered benevolent. Because I will nto except the idea of an evil, or uncaring God, I question his existence.
The answer is simple. God made the word perfect. There was no death, no sadness, no sin; everything was completely perfect. But God also gave us free will, which means we had to have the ability to disobey God. That's why He forbade Adam and Eve from eating from the tree. Guess what we did? We ate from the tree and disobeyed God. We have no one to blame but ourselves.
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Originally Posted by m52nickerson View Post
Again, I'm not trying to paint God as evil. The question is why did a benevolent God make the rules as he did? Why would he make rules that the very people he made are very hard to follow, and then punish those who don't/can't to eternal suffering?
Originally Posted by m52nickerson View Post
Again, I'm not trying to paint God as evil. The question is why did a benevolent God make the rules as he did? Why would he make rules that the very people he made are very hard to follow, and then punish those who don't/can't to eternal suffering?
Can you, m52nickerson understand an infinite being?
Where were you when he made the earth, or breathed life into all things including you?
I don't think you are competent to even argue with Him.
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Originally Posted by m52nickerson View Post
Again, I'm not trying to paint God as evil. The question is why did a benevolent God make the rules as he did? Why would he make rules that the very people he made are very hard to follow, and then punish those who don't/can't to eternal suffering?
Originally Posted by m52nickerson View Post
Again, I'm not trying to paint God as evil. The question is why did a benevolent God make the rules as he did? Why would he make rules that the very people he made are very hard to follow, and then punish those who don't/can't to eternal suffering?
Because of the free will. If God didn't give us a chance to totally reject Him there's no way we could every truly love Him.
Actually, God's rules are easy to follow. Repent your sins and accept Christ. It's the easiest and best choice you'll ever make.
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Originally Posted by MrMannn View Post
I was not mistaken. Here it clearly comes out:
Originally Posted by MrMannn View Post
I was not mistaken. Here it clearly comes out:
Since I said that I will not except the idea of an evil God, and since I can't find a way to come away with God allowing the people he created to suffer, I question his existence I'm saying he must be evil?
MrMannn you could jump in and tell me how you accept the fact that a benevolent God allows suffering and evil in a world he has control over.
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Originally Posted by ThePenguin View Post
The answer is simple. God made the word perfect. There was no death, no sadness, no sin; everything was completely perfect. But God also gave us free will, which means we had to have the ability to disobey God. That's why He forbade Adam and Eve from eating from the tree. Guess what we did? We ate from the tree and disobeyed God. We have no one to blame but ourselves.
Originally Posted by ThePenguin View Post
The answer is simple. God made the word perfect. There was no death, no sadness, no sin; everything was completely perfect. But God also gave us free will, which means we had to have the ability to disobey God. That's why He forbade Adam and Eve from eating from the tree. Guess what we did? We ate from the tree and disobeyed God. We have no one to blame but ourselves.
How could his creation be perfect with the facts that there was a snake to tempt and that Eve would ever choose to eat the fruit?
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Originally Posted by m52nickerson View Post
Since I said that I will not except the idea of an evil God, and since I can't find a way to come away with God allowing the people he created to suffer, I question his existence I'm saying he must be evil?
MrMannn you could jump in and tell me how you accept the fact that a benevolent God allows suffering and evil in a world he has control over.
Originally Posted by m52nickerson View Post
Since I said that I will not except the idea of an evil God, and since I can't find a way to come away with God allowing the people he created to suffer, I question his existence I'm saying he must be evil?
MrMannn you could jump in and tell me how you accept the fact that a benevolent God allows suffering and evil in a world he has control over.
Better yet I will show you the key to understanding it all:
www.greatcom.org/english/four.htm
click on the link. You know you want to.
Its a pretty blue link. Click it.
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He is both willing and able.
Now, m52nickerson, are you absolutely sure you wish God to remove all evil from the universe at this point? Do you want Him to banish all things that are unrighteous, unholy, and unclean right now?
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Originally Posted by m52nickerson View Post
Since I said that I will not except the idea of an evil God, and since I can't find a way to come away with God allowing the people he created to suffer, I question his existence I'm saying he must be evil?
MrMannn you could jump in and tell me how you accept the fact that a benevolent God allows suffering and evil in a world he has control over.
Originally Posted by m52nickerson View Post
Since I said that I will not except the idea of an evil God, and since I can't find a way to come away with God allowing the people he created to suffer, I question his existence I'm saying he must be evil?
MrMannn you could jump in and tell me how you accept the fact that a benevolent God allows suffering and evil in a world he has control over.
God didn't create us so we could suffer. Did He know we would sin? Yes. Did He cause us to sin? No, we chose it. God doesn't want us to go to Hell for all eternity, He wants people to accept Christ so they will have eternal life.
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Originally Posted by MrMannn View Post
Can you, m52nickerson understand an infinite being?
Where were you when he made the earth, or breathed life into all things including you?
I don't think you are competent to even argue with Him.
Originally Posted by MrMannn View Post
Can you, m52nickerson understand an infinite being?
Where were you when he made the earth, or breathed life into all things including you?
I don't think you are competent to even argue with Him.
I can understand the difference between good and bad, right and wrong. How do we say that letting people suffer when it could be stopped is good?
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Originally Posted by Kliska View Post
He is both willing and able.
Now, m52nickerson, are you absolutely sure you wish God to remove all evil from the universe at this point? Do you want Him to banish all things that are unrighteous, unholy, and unclean right now?
Originally Posted by Kliska View Post
He is both willing and able.
Now, m52nickerson, are you absolutely sure you wish God to remove all evil from the universe at this point? Do you want Him to banish all things that are unrighteous, unholy, and unclean right now?
Do you expect M52 to really answer. He's not really here to discuss. He thinks he has a trap and he wants to spring it on us. An atheist with a gotcha question and nothing else.
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Originally Posted by Kliska View Post
He is both willing and able.
Now, m52nickerson, are you absolutely sure you wish God to remove all evil from the universe at this point? Do you want Him to banish all things that are unrighteous, unholy, and unclean right now?
Originally Posted by Kliska View Post
He is both willing and able.
Now, m52nickerson, are you absolutely sure you wish God to remove all evil from the universe at this point? Do you want Him to banish all things that are unrighteous, unholy, and unclean right now?
I'm questioning why he would include them into his creation?
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I can understand the difference between good and bad, right and wrong. How do we say that letting people suffer when it could be stopped is good?
Originally Posted by m52nickerson View Post
I can understand the difference between good and bad, right and wrong. How do we say that letting people suffer when it could be stopped is good?
I gave you a link, click on it. read it.
www.greatcom.org/english/four.htm
here it is again.
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I'm questioning why he would include them into his creation?
Answer the questions, then I'll answer yours.
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I'm questioning why he would include them into his creation?
Originally Posted by m52nickerson View Post
I'm questioning why he would include them into his creation?
I told you he wouldn't answer. He;s here to spring a gotcha question and he has nothing else.
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Originally Posted by m52nickerson View Post
Again, I'm not trying to paint God as evil. The question is why did a benevolent God make the rules as he did? Why would he make rules that the very people he made are very hard to follow, and then punish those who don't/can't to eternal suffering?
Again, I'm not trying to paint God as evil. The question is why did a benevolent God make the rules as he did? Why would he make rules that the very people he made are very hard to follow, and then punish those who don't/can't to eternal suffering?
Do you have rules regarding who comes into your house, or is yours an open door policy? People who hate you, are they allowed in? Come on, you have enough "omnipotence" to govern who steps foot in your door. You have rules, and I venture to guess, you enforce them. Yet you argue against a God, in whom you do not believe, doing the exact same thing?
Illogical.
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I'm questioning why he would include them into his creation?
Originally Posted by m52nickerson View Post
I'm questioning why he would include them into his creation?
He didn't. We did it. We disobeyed God and basically opened up Pandora's Box.
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Originally Posted by MrMannn View Post
Its your classic trick question.
Its just like the other classic atheist trick question:
"Can God make a rock He cannot lift?"
No matter how you answer either question, its a trap.
I used to think atheists had all these high falutin arguments until the waves started coming from FSTDT. All I see are the same old smoke and mirrors. You guys don't really have any good arguments to back your claims up with.
I don't remember the verse but there is a quote in the OT, "A fool says in his heart, there is no God." It was true then and its true now.
Originally Posted by MrMannn View Post
Its your classic trick question.
Its just like the other classic atheist trick question:
"Can God make a rock He cannot lift?"
No matter how you answer either question, its a trap.
I used to think atheists had all these high falutin arguments until the waves started coming from FSTDT. All I see are the same old smoke and mirrors. You guys don't really have any good arguments to back your claims up with.
I don't remember the verse but there is a quote in the OT, "A fool says in his heart, there is no God." It was true then and its true now.
I see it is a trick because you can't answer it. MrMannn you may be secure in your faith to except what has been written. For myself and others we are not. Saying that all people who ask these questions are attacking your faith but not honestly looking to see if they can be answered serves only the purpose of you not having to look at them.
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How could his creation be perfect with the facts that there was a snake to tempt and that Eve would ever choose to eat the fruit?
Originally Posted by m52nickerson View Post
How could his creation be perfect with the facts that there was a snake to tempt and that Eve would ever choose to eat the fruit?
a typical nonbeliever question......WHO CARESTHINK ABOUT IT VEWY CAWFEWY, I don't pretend to know the mind of God because......I JUST TRUST IN HIS WAYS. That's all, if you opened yer heart, He'd come in, but yer more stuck on all these stupid questions that back you up in yer unbelief.....YER CHOICEHOPE YOU SEE THE LIGHT, but if you never do
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