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Post by Rime on Aug 19, 2009 14:49:10 GMT -5
In Soviet Canuckistan, I don't really mind doling out about 10% of my income so people don't have to either go lame or bend over for financial sodomy because they didn't have the money for a foot x-ray. Oh G_d forbid, moron, that giving up a portion of your paycheck for others is somehow TYRANNY. Your precious LORD and SAVIOR demanded his disciples live as a bunch of COMMUNISTS.
Get. Over. It.
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Post by catanon on Aug 19, 2009 15:47:03 GMT -5
Yeah, hey RHJ, remember that one dude? "Love thy neighbor", walked on water, preached love, turn the other cheek, remember that guy? Oh, that was Jesus? Okay then. Well, remember what he used to say? That whole, love thy neighbor thing? Okay, well how about when he was talking about living in poverty and without worldly possessions? All that about charity and good will toward your fellow man?
Yeah, if you seriously think you're at all "Christian" then you're a walking contradiction.
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Post by Freydis The Valkyrie on Aug 19, 2009 18:47:44 GMT -5
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Post by stormwarden on Aug 19, 2009 22:46:00 GMT -5
Communism existed long before Karl Marx. The Jesuits practiced a form of it in South America, making sure most of the profits went back to the natives. Jesus advocated similar methods. So I find it odd that RH, a supposed Xian, is so eager to oppose them. Well, what can you do about a guy who still thinks Rush is something other than an overpaid cheerleader for the Repubs?
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Post by Freydis The Valkyrie on Aug 23, 2009 18:44:56 GMT -5
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Post by stormwarden on Aug 23, 2009 19:16:16 GMT -5
So basically, God is the original Self-Insertion fan character, and the Bible is the original bad fanfic? Interesting how he doesn't even consider that God might not be as benevolent as he claims. Kinda hard to call something benevolent when it throw you in a lake of fire for simply not agreeing with it.
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Post by MaybeNever on Aug 23, 2009 19:45:26 GMT -5
I mostly agree with this sentiment, geeky though it is. Pity it's rather towering hypocrisy from someone who appears to be adamant in the idea that knowledge must never be allowed to grow.
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Post by Admiral Lithp on Aug 23, 2009 23:10:56 GMT -5
True.
Err...not true. The fear during the Cold War was that people would start firing nukes, & it would be the end of civilization. It had relatively little to do with how powerful communist society itself was.
Okay, how exactly are you one to talk about propaganda?
No, it was for the sake of survival. One city (or in the movie, dozens of cities) dies to save the whole world for several generations. That was Ozymandias's plan.
Contrasted with your earlier point, you seem to be of the opinion that communism would have overshadowed capitalism, given that you do not even allow for the possibility that communism fails, when it's all said & done. Nevertheless, I see what you mean: the peace was flimsy at best. That's the point of the conversation at the end between him & Jon:
(Paraphrased)
"You can see the future. Did I do the right thing in the end?" "Nothing ever ends."
Red. Scare.
Stormwarden, you made an interesting point that reflects here. Just because someone says they are doing somethig for the greater good, that does not mean they are. Ozymandias was practically undeniably the villain of Watchmen. The fact that he did not see himself as such should not stop people from making their own judgements.
Incorrect. If people started fighting again, Ozymandias would have created another suicide-bombing psychic squid. In theory, neither side could advance any further. In any case, this is all well & good as the possible repercussions of Ozymandias's actions, but it does not say, in any way shape or form, that communism is good. In fact, this entire theory is based on the foundation that communism is evil. You literally cannnot accept this interpretation, unless you first accept that communism is evil & will take over the world at any cost. Good propaganda convinces you that the OTHER side is bad.
This was the point in the moral dilemna faced by the characters at the end. And here's where the deconstruction takes place--they decide to side with the villain "for the greater good." Justice League Unlimited explored similar implications with self-righteousness, with the major difference that Watchmen didn't exactly end with everyone overcoming their moral crisis, saving the day, & patting themselves on the back in the end. Even Ozymandias himself was unsure of his decision.
I find this ironic.
So, I guess I'm gonna continue commenting on the biggest shit nobody cares about portions of this guy's rants, but I'm still trying to contact him so we can talk about this directly. I'm starting to see where this "propaganda" angle is coming from, but it really does not hold up to scrutiny.
I don't know whether or not he ever read Watchmen in its entirety, but he clearly did not understand it. Tales of the Black Freighter, for example, is meant to allude to what Ozymandias is going through. The protagonist becomes so paranoid that he kills an innocent couple, along with his own family, trying to save the town from pirates. In the end, he joins the pirates because he realizes that he's lost his soul in the old "the road to Hell is paved with good intentions" thing. Does that sound like the guy you want to root for? Does Ozymandias?
If you can have such a clear objection to his actions, how does he accomplish his goal of being propaganda? For that matter, why is Rorschach, his polar opposite, the most sympathetic character in the book?
How come fans of Watchmen never seem to be any more interested in communism than they were previously?
Reiteration: The claim of propaganda just does not hold up under scrutiny.
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Post by stormwarden on Aug 23, 2009 23:39:16 GMT -5
And that is the thing, Lithp. RH was angry that I would claim that the slaughter of the Midianites was not for the greater good. Why? Because it conflicted with God. News flash: Murder of women and children is NEVER for the greater good.
But to get back to the point, when someone claims that the ends justify the means, especially if the means is abominable, it requires scrutiny.
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Post by Freydis The Valkyrie on Aug 23, 2009 23:47:57 GMT -5
And that is the thing, Lithp. RH was angry that I would claim that the slaughter of the Midianites was not for the greater good. Why? Because it conflicted with God. News flash: Murder of women and children is NEVER for the greater good. But to get back to the point, when someone claims that the ends justify the means, especially if the means is abominable, it requires scrutiny. The thing is, I bet that's what he wishes the American Armed Forces, and the Israeli Army would start doing to Muslims. He wants the ends to justify the means, because he gets a hardon for holy war.
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Post by stormwarden on Aug 24, 2009 0:23:58 GMT -5
In other words, RH is a chickenhawk. Holy wars...RH, this isn't the dark ages, and you aren't the Inquisition however much you would like to be. It is a sore spot with me when people don't see the disconnect between their personal fantasies and reality.
RH wants a holy war that should not come to pass.
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Post by Admiral Lithp on Aug 24, 2009 2:29:32 GMT -5
Well, I finally talked to RHJunior. It was a lengthy discussion (totaling about 2 hours), involving Watchmen, communism, WWII, and the like.
I must say, his views on Watchmen were a bit more coherent than I had originally thought. He actually made some points that could be valid interpretations. I wouldn't exactly call it "propaganda," but "negative social commentary," maybe.
Unfortunately, he eventually showed the kind of thing that gets commented on. When Ozymandias blows away entire cities, it's bad. When the Japanese do it, it's bad. When we do it, we are justified for reasons x, y, & z. That's one thing.
Another thing is that our discussion on communism was nothing short of annoying. Evidently, communism is evil, & not just an abstract philosophy. I am also the next sucker in an age-old scam (despite clarifying that I do not actually identify with communists), & he pegged me as a high school student who was just regurgitating whatever he had been told, & needed to be "taught." Ordinarily, that sort of thing pisses me off, but I ignored it, & pressed on with the main point that the world simply isn't that black-&-white. The conversation ended like this:
RHJ: I'm sorry, this conversation has ended. Me: Naturally. Me: Would you like to talk about something else? RHJ: This conversation has ended. Me: I see. Well, then, it was nice talking to you. Me: Perhaps we'll talk again some other time. RHJ: Perhaps.
I'll probably try at least once more. I didn't even get to scratch the surface on the whole "Christian persecution" thing.
In all honesty, it really wasn't that bad, up until the whole, "i needz 2 skoolz uz, bt i dont hav ze timez" thing.
The highlights of the conversation were that communism is theft, but in capitalism, you can't stay poor unless you don't try, & that the characters of Watchmen were all basically liberal, anti-con strawmen.
Meanwhile, in the main channel, I also had an argument about whether or not vampires were better than zombies. They totally are, by the way. RHJ & I were on the same team, there.
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Post by Admiral Lithp on Aug 24, 2009 22:30:47 GMT -5
Update: Had a conversation about atheism with the channel. That was a lot less insightful. Besides like 2 other members, no one really knew what they were talking about. It was all a bunch of "atheists are elitist, stupid, doo-doo heads who can't disprove God!" type posts.
I feel like a douche talking this way behind their backs, but I'm not gonna lie, that's what it was like. Seriously, they used the whole "look around you--EVERYTHING proves God!" card more than once.
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Post by Freydis The Valkyrie on Aug 25, 2009 13:44:12 GMT -5
Takeru and Skydancer, right?
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Post by Admiral Lithp on Aug 25, 2009 14:27:26 GMT -5
Takeru, yes. The other one was Unsilenced. I think.
Whether or not they're the same person, I don't know.
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