shrike
Junior Member
Polyamorous Atheist
Posts: 56
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Post by shrike on Mar 23, 2009 13:27:47 GMT -5
I myself am looking to have an MBA, and if I do get married it'll probably be to someone who at least has a bachelor's. Intelligence and wit is far more important to me in the long term of a relationship than actual education, from my experience. Intelligence is important to me in a woman, and my girlfriend has it in spades, but she has no higher education. She is a certified American Sign Language interpreter, an accomplished writer (not published, unfortunately, but is working on a novel), and a hell of a conversationalist. I'll take that reality over a piece of paper any day.
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Post by shykid on Mar 24, 2009 17:31:30 GMT -5
Quite a few members of my extended family are like this. I don't think any of my cousins from the uber-fundie part have not been homeschooled at one point or another. It's saddening to say the least; they're more or less being indoctrinated rather than schooled, and their parents lack sufficient education to make good teachers. And almost none of them get into college, yet they wind up homeschooling their own children.
Not that there's anything wrong with homeschooling when it's done by educated, non-fundie parents. I was an army brat with a dad that was re-stationed several times during my childhood, so I wound up being mostly homeschooled until seventh grade when my dad retired. It was a better option than being shoved into a new curriculum every time we had to move.
I agree that homeschooled kids need to take a standardized test every year to confirm that they're actually learning what they should be for their age. If they fail, they should be hauled off to public school (or an accredited private school). I guarantee you it'd happen to at least 75% of 'em being "schooled" at home by fundie parents.
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Post by silencesoloud8603 on Apr 1, 2009 13:51:22 GMT -5
I wish there was a standardized test to make sure homeschool students get a proper education. It would have made my life so much easier - it would have either motivated me in my academically apathetic younger years or I would have intentionally failed to get out of homeschooling. I was one of the ones fortunate enough to get out of Christianity and get into a good college, but I know I'll be facing a lot of challenges this fall, probably more so than my non-homeschooled future classmates. Homeschooling is FAR too unregulated and it has fucked up several students' academic lives, including mine so far, and it's still doing so. Some states require visits from a supervising teacher, but they're often fundies and/or very easy for homeschool parents to bullshit. I think that, in addition to the testing that has been previously stated as something that should be required, students beyond a certain age should have to sign a homeschool consent form in order for their parents to homeschool them and there should be a list of approved curriculum. The government can't ban books, but they sure as hell can require approval (pre-approved list plus the ability to get a book manually approved by an education official seems to me like the best way to do this) for a book to count as legitimate curriculum.
On a semi-related note, I plan on talking to my father about putting my brother in a public or private school. He has the same apathy issues that I did and still somewhat do (it's really fucking hard for an atheist to find the motivation to study creationist science books, at least it is in my case) but to an even more severe extent. He spends all his time up in his room playing computer games and barely even attempts to get anything done. He needs the pressure of a class environment and the ability to talk to a qualified professional about areas where he's having difficulty - the same needs I had and still have but was deprived of. Wish me luck - trying to convince my dad of anything can be like trying to convince Fred Phelps that God is gay.
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Post by wmdkitty on Apr 1, 2009 19:32:22 GMT -5
I would rather homeschool my kids than send them to a public or (Satan forbid) a publicly funded Catholic School. I just want them to understand that education is a lifelong process, not something that can be crushed into 10 months out of the year for 14 years then never spoken of again, which is someting I find schools fundamentally lack these days. It's not like it's an unfounded fear, when stats show that 80% of Americans read exactly 1 book or less a year. Of course, by the time I have kids, I'll have at least 2, most likely 3, or possibly 4 university degrees, including one in education. WTF, one book a year? I average two books a week!
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Post by The_L on Apr 2, 2009 14:28:03 GMT -5
Quite a few members of my extended family are like this. I don't think any of my cousins from the uber-fundie part have not been homeschooled at one point or another. It's saddening to say the least; they're more or less being indoctrinated rather than schooled, and their parents lack sufficient education to make good teachers. And almost none of them get into college, yet they wind up homeschooling their own children. Not that there's anything wrong with homeschooling when it's done by educated, non-fundie parents. I was an army brat with a dad that was re-stationed several times during my childhood, so I wound up being mostly homeschooled until seventh grade when my dad retired. It was a better option than being shoved into a new curriculum every time we had to move. I agree that homeschooled kids need to take a standardized test every year to confirm that they're actually learning what they should be for their age. If they fail, they should be hauled off to public school (or an accredited private school). I guarantee you it'd happen to at least 75% of 'em being "schooled" at home by fundie parents. This. There are, indeed, legitimate reasons for wanting to home-school a child, such as if the school is failing to properly educate the child (IE: the Army schools over in Germany) or the child is in legitimate physical danger from other students (IE: the high school I went to). Which Army schools in Germany? And when? My mom used to teach at the DODDS in Hannau, and I'm morbidly curious.
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Post by brendanjd on Apr 2, 2009 21:24:39 GMT -5
I would rather homeschool my kids than send them to a public or (Satan forbid) a publicly funded Catholic School. I just want them to understand that education is a lifelong process, not something that can be crushed into 10 months out of the year for 14 years then never spoken of again, which is someting I find schools fundamentally lack these days. It's not like it's an unfounded fear, when stats show that 80% of Americans read exactly 1 book or less a year. Of course, by the time I have kids, I'll have at least 2, most likely 3, or possibly 4 university degrees, including one in education. WTF, one book a year? I average two books a week! I know. It's royally fucked. I can't find the specific stats, but this was of enough importance that I saw it on a Canadian newws channel. EDIT: Found a website. Enjoy: [link/]http://www.seattlepi.com/national/328550_reading22.html[/link] 57% read one book in 2002, and 27% didn't ready at all.
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Post by ltfred on Apr 3, 2009 2:57:16 GMT -5
I agree that I should be able to home-school my kids. However, it is for the opposite reasons. My aunt, OTOH, is so concerned her older offspring is thinking for itself, she refuses to send the younger to anything but a Christian college. Fear not, Christian Colleges seem to churn out more skeptics and atheists (or just liberal Christians) than fundies or true blue believers. It happened to me.
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Post by dantesvirgil on Apr 3, 2009 10:15:31 GMT -5
Just for the record, there is a standardized test that homeschoolers have to take to demonstrate they are on par with state standards. In most states it's either the test the public schools issue to public school kids in the Spring to measure achievement, or it's a portfolio graded by a certifed person that demonstrates the equivalent skills. If they don't meet the test standards, they have to demonstrate to the schools that they are improving or they are subject to losing their rights to homeschool. West Virginia has this law, and many other states do too. There are measures and control on homeschooling.
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Post by silencesoloud8603 on Apr 3, 2009 14:44:08 GMT -5
Just for the record, there is a standardized test that homeschoolers have to take to demonstrate they are on par with state standards. In most states it's either the test the public schools issue to public school kids in the Spring to measure achievement, or it's a portfolio graded by a certifed person that demonstrates the equivalent skills. If they don't meet the test standards, they have to demonstrate to the schools that they are improving or they are subject to losing their rights to homeschool. West Virginia has this law, and many other states do too. There are measures and control on homeschooling. Do you know of any sites that would have more details on this? I've been homeschooled in 3 states (Connecticut, Iowa, Wisconsin) and either none of them has anything like this or it's VERY easy to circumvent. Iowa has the supervising teachers, but as I said earlier they're often fundies that look the other way or very easy to bullshit. All I know is that whatever the system is, it's easy to lie to. There's no way in hell I could pass the history section of a test of skills such as the hypothetical one being discussed (my dad had me using a history curriculum for 10 year olds when I was a freshman in high school; the supervising teacher the state of Iowa assigned us didn't give a flying fuck) and I'd struggle mightily on the science section because I've learned more science online than from any book and I still lack a lot of the core knowledge (creationist curriculum and forced apathy will do that to you). If you could give me a link or more details with your source that would be great; I plan on helping to fight to make homeschooling MUCH more heavily regulated in the future, because there's no way in hell it's regulated enough as it is. My brother and I are living proof of that.
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Post by skyfire on Apr 4, 2009 17:10:36 GMT -5
I myself am looking to have an MBA, and if I do get married it'll probably be to someone who at least has a bachelor's. Intelligence and wit is far more important to me in the long term of a relationship than actual education, from my experience. Intelligence is important to me in a woman, and my girlfriend has it in spades, but she has no higher education. She is a certified American Sign Language interpreter, an accomplished writer (not published, unfortunately, but is working on a novel), and a hell of a conversationalist. I'll take that reality over a piece of paper any day. It's a matter of my present dating pool. If I go for someone of the same denomination, then given the premium placed on education anyone within my rough age bracket will most likely have a degree or the equivalent in trade certifications. If I go for someone outside of the denomination, given my current routine we'll most likely meet at college.
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Post by wmdkitty on Apr 4, 2009 18:04:52 GMT -5
WTF, one book a year? I average two books a week! I know. It's royally fucked. I can't find the specific stats, but this was of enough importance that I saw it on a Canadian newws channel. EDIT: Found a website. Enjoy: [link/]http://www.seattlepi.com/national/328550_reading22.html [/link] 57% read one book in 2002, and 27% didn't ready at all.[/quote] This is disturbing.
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Post by deliciousdemon on Apr 4, 2009 19:15:08 GMT -5
WTF, one book a year? I average two books a week! I know. It's royally fucked. I can't find the specific stats, but this was of enough importance that I saw it on a Canadian newws channel. EDIT: Found a website. Enjoy: [link/]http://www.seattlepi.com/national/328550_reading22.html [/link] 57% read one book in 2002, and 27% didn't ready at all.[/quote] When I was a child my mother had to put limits on my library card so I wouldn't check out 20 books a week and never sleep. Reading is such an important part of education--kids should read as much as they can. It's stifling not to.
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Post by dantesvirgil on Apr 5, 2009 13:39:41 GMT -5
Do you know of any sites that would have more details on this? I've been homeschooled in 3 states (Connecticut, Iowa, Wisconsin) and either none of them has anything like this or it's VERY easy to circumvent. Iowa has the supervising teachers, but as I said earlier they're often fundies that look the other way or very easy to bullshit. All I know is that whatever the system is, it's easy to lie to. There's no way in hell I could pass the history section of a test of skills such as the hypothetical one being discussed (my dad had me using a history curriculum for 10 year olds when I was a freshman in high school; the supervising teacher the state of Iowa assigned us didn't give a flying fuck) and I'd struggle mightily on the science section because I've learned more science online than from any book and I still lack a lot of the core knowledge (creationist curriculum and forced apathy will do that to you). If you could give me a link or more details with your source that would be great; I plan on helping to fight to make homeschooling MUCH more heavily regulated in the future, because there's no way in hell it's regulated enough as it is. My brother and I are living proof of that. Well, as far as one site that would consolidate all the requirements of each state, I'm not aware of any. You might try the HSLDA website, which is the sort of "legal defense" organization of homeschooling (although not all homeschoolers support HSLDA; my hsing group did not). Their site is hslda.org, and they have links for state laws, so you might find what you're looking for there. Most things they have are PDF form. The one for Wisconsin, for example, notes that hsing students don't have to take the standardized test, and it outlines what they do have to do in terms of hours of instruction. It doesn't say in the PDF how it's monitored, but I'm sure that HSLDA probably has a link for that, as well, considering their business is why and how hs kids are monitored. I didn't check the other two states--if you're curious, you can find them easily on HSLDA's website. You can also check the homeschool requirements for each county based on the public school system in that county--they may or may not have that listed on their websites, you might have to call. But from my own hsing experience, I can tell you with certainty that every state has rules, and sometimes the counties will add to those rules. It's a simple matter of making a phone call to figure out what the current rules are. Can people circumvent the rules? Sure they can. But that doesn't mean there aren't rules there and that people don't get caught. In the same way they can screw their kids public school education by doing things like not sending their kids to school most of the time, bitching to administrators about teaching evolution, etc. parents can fuck up a kids education. But that doesn't mean it happens the majority of the time. The vast majority of people who hs follow the rules and the kids do just fine.
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Post by silencesoloud8603 on Apr 6, 2009 23:41:04 GMT -5
post regarding legal issues of homeschooling I'm going to assume you are or have been a homeschooling parent, student, or even potentially both. My experience with homeschooling has been the exact opposite of yours; the vast majority of homeschool students I've known over the years (and there has been a fairly substantial number) have either had similar issues to what my brother and I have or they've actually been motivated students who worked their asses off and soaked up the information presented to them. In the latter case, the issue was that these students were usually poorly socialized and the information they were presented was usually false (I don't know how many homeschoolers I've met that have had some "air tight" defense of the Bible or creationism). This is, in many cases, obviously because the parents of these students wanted to avoid their kids being exposed to the evil Muslim atheists teaching the classes and the "bad apples" that are guaranteed to knock up their daughters and sell drugs to their sons if they're allowed so much as a handshake. I'm going to hazard to guess that you have had somewhat limited exposure to homeschooling done wrong, like I've been talking about, just as I've had almost no experience with homeschooling done right in such a way that there would be no issues with standardized tests, state approval for books, student consent, and such if implemented. I fully agree that homeschooling has potential to provide an excellent education while allowing for more free time to pursue personal interests, etc. but it's abused by far too many people who should have no right to homeschool (Mike Pearl and his No Greater Joy cult come to mind as an extreme example - if it was sufficiently regulated there's no way he and his family would even be able to keep their kids, let alone homeschool them) and is, therefore, not heavily regulated enough. If people like the Pearls can survive legal run-ins and most can get by with a simple "yeah, they're doing their work," something's wrong. I know from experience how easy it is to circumvent the laws put in place, which are far too lax. I've listened to my parents talking to the supervising teacher in Iowa and even told her what she wanted to hear because I feared what my dad would do to me and because I didn't care nearly as much about my education back then as I do now. I've heard parents brag about how they put questions or suspicion to rest with just a few words or a brief phone call, etc. While parents can definitely fuck up their kids' education regardless of where they get their education or lack thereof, believe me when I say it's MUCH easier than most people think to do so with homeschooling.
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Post by dantesvirgil on Apr 7, 2009 7:51:18 GMT -5
It is a hazardous guess, because you would be wrong about my lack of exposure to "wrong" or bad homeschooling. I grew up a Jehovah's Witness, and while I wasn't homeschooled myself, several of the kids I knew as a JW were--and their education was pathetic. They couldn't spell, could barely do math, didn't know much about science, and the history they knew was Biblical history. So, from a young age, I had a very negative opinion of homeschooling. And I went through a shitty public school system and managed to go to college with a scholarship, so I know that public school can work, too. That changed when I had a child of my own who didn't seem to navigate the regular school system very well because the way he learned was just so different from the standard way of learning--and he's mildly dyslexic. When I checked into homeschooling myself, I found out that there is an entirely different world out there. There's "unschoolers" and classic homeschoolers, people who do "co-op" style learning, kids that were doing online curriculum and some hands on group classes or went to public school part time--all kinds of different "flavors". In my homeschooling group, there were people who hsed because their kids were allergic to a lot of different stuff and the school environment made them sick; there were kids who were severely dyslexic who basically just had to have a personal tutor to keep learning; there were pediatricians who decided they wanted to keep their kids at home and teach them there (her sons always go on to represent the state in a variety of contests); there were regular parents who just wanted that experience with their kids. There was one religious family in our group, but they weren't nuts. The nuts had their own group. ;D To me, the issue about homeschooling comes down solely to the reason a person chooses to homeschool their kids. If it's for religious reasons, I would lay my money down every time that their education is going to be shitty. If it's actually for the education, well, those kids are some of the most well adjusted, intelligent kids I've ever met. They also had parents like me who knew when homeschooling had met the goal they'd started with and when to put the kid back in public school, if necessary. I still have to work with him for a couple of hours each day (on top of school) to make sure he gets it--but that's not the public school's fault. It's just the way he's "geared" toward learning. I'll probably have to do this until he graduates high school, and I've accepted that. I'm sorry you had such a shitty experience. It's the experience I watched several people close to me go through as well, and it's no fun. It's not "permanent damage", though, so please don't feel too bad about the sort of "start" you got. And I know it's very easy to circumvent the law--but even the religious nuts that I knew didn't try to cheat the system; they always did their tests or turned in their portfolios. So I would suggest that far fewer people cheat the system than maybe you might suspect. I don't want to screw the many, many people I've met across the US who homeschool because a few nuts won't turn their paperwork in. And that's what usually happens when you clamp down harder on homeschooling. The problem would be solved if the public school system just sent people out to check on homeschoolers (much like social workers, actually) and to verify their paperwork.
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