|
Post by SimSim on Mar 24, 2009 18:52:50 GMT -5
(Archeology must be a wonderful career. If only it didn't involve so much, you know, actual work.) Nothing quite like scraping away dirt in the blazing sun and having to pay attention to minute details like changes in dirt coloring. Oh look, it changed from 10YR Dark Brown to 10YR Mottled Dark Brown, new layer. Ah, memories.
|
|
|
Post by JonathanE on Mar 24, 2009 20:56:22 GMT -5
Fascinating stuff, JonathanE. I'm reluctant to expend mental energy by using science -- soft or hard -- to refute the beliefs of religious nutbags (of any persuasion). It is an utterly useless exercise. Nonetheless, I find great pleasure in encountering the sort of knowledge you just shared. (Archeology must be a wonderful career. If only it didn't involve so much, you know, actual work.) Only an amatuer, Old Viking. My study of archeology has been about 99% bookwork. I worked 2 summers at a dig in SW Ontario, trying to find the actual battlefield at Moraviantown where Tecumtheh was killed in 1813. We actually located it about 2 kilometers from the "statue" site commemorating the battle. I took 4 courses (electives) while studying for my undergrad degree in history. You're right, though, you get awfully dirty and tired. Not at all like the movies, no cool hats or bullwhips or any of that neat stuff, and it IS hard work. Just thought I should clear that up. I'm not an archeologist, rather an historian with a fascination for Meso-American archeology. I have had that fascination since I learned about the Conquistadors in grade school.
|
|
|
Post by Paradox on Mar 24, 2009 21:16:43 GMT -5
If I were an archeologist, I'd still wear a cool hat. Just on general principal.
|
|
|
Post by JonathanE on Mar 24, 2009 23:11:59 GMT -5
I actually have a very nondescript felt fedora that I wear while canoeing, fly fishing or any other goof off time I can spend in the wilderness. It's older than I am, and while I am not as ancient as OV, I am pretty fuckin' old. Great hat.
|
|
|
Post by deliciousdemon on Mar 26, 2009 4:37:23 GMT -5
Fascinating stuff, JonathanE. I'm reluctant to expend mental energy by using science -- soft or hard -- to refute the beliefs of religious nutbags (of any persuasion). It is an utterly useless exercise. Nonetheless, I find great pleasure in encountering the sort of knowledge you just shared. (Archeology must be a wonderful career. If only it didn't involve so much, you know, actual work.) Only an amatuer, Old Viking. My study of archeology has been about 99% bookwork. I worked 2 summers at a dig in SW Ontario, trying to find the actual battlefield at Moraviantown where Tecumtheh was killed in 1813. We actually located it about 2 kilometers from the "statue" site commemorating the battle. I took 4 courses (electives) while studying for my undergrad degree in history. You're right, though, you get awfully dirty and tired. Not at all like the movies, no cool hats or bullwhips or any of that neat stuff, and it IS hard work. Just thought I should clear that up. I'm not an archeologist, rather an historian with a fascination for Meso-American archeology. I have had that fascination since I learned about the Conquistadors in grade school. The real fun is in the laboratory! I remember looking at my first 'mystery' assemblage which contained a smattering of insects--fleas, ticks, et cetera and when I realised what it meant it freaked me out in a good way 'holy hell, people lived there!'. And don't get me started on pollen analysis... I'm rather fond of mesoamerican era archaeology as well, my favourite culture being the Moche of Peru. When I saw my first Moche vase I nearly died, they are so beautiful I couldn't believe a human being made them.
|
|
|
Post by JonathanE on Mar 26, 2009 5:07:27 GMT -5
From what I've read, the Moche were some MEAN mothers. Of course, much of the mesoAmeican culture was.
|
|
|
Post by trike on Mar 26, 2009 11:55:35 GMT -5
JonathanE,
That's really cool. I'm interesting in archaeology myself, but gave up on making a career of it when I took a class on it and realized that I don't have the patience for it.
|
|
|
Post by SimSim on Mar 26, 2009 15:34:04 GMT -5
The real fun is in the laboratory! I remember looking at my first 'mystery' assemblage which contained a smattering of insects--fleas, ticks, et cetera and when I realised what it meant it freaked me out in a good way 'holy hell, people lived there!'. And don't get me started on pollen analysis... I'm rather fond of mesoamerican era archaeology as well, my favourite culture being the Moche of Peru. When I saw my first Moche vase I nearly died, they are so beautiful I couldn't believe a human being made them. Reconstructing pots and cleaning artifacts doesn't get on your nerves?
|
|
|
Post by skyfire on Mar 26, 2009 16:12:21 GMT -5
Wow - running down here to start another thread, Jon?
There's places where you'd be called out for trolling for trying to have two discussions going at once for the sake of trying to hammer on an individual member.
|
|
|
Post by skyfire on Mar 26, 2009 16:18:08 GMT -5
I'll get to the rest of your post later as I have time (I need to leave for class soon), but I do want to note this before I go: There is no evidence for any sort of religion that even vaguely resembles Christianity in pre-Columbian Meso-American culture. Wrong.The entire first half of this page here is a recounting of descriptions given by Catholic clergy of instances wherein Native beliefs that they encountered in the Americas bore resemblance to elements of Christian theology. Footnotes are even offered to show source citations. Note that the page is yellow text on a black background, and so people might have trouble reading it. [stuffy British accent]Once more, we see the critic of the church resorting to one of its most instinctive actions when engaged in combat: demeaning the intellect of any and all Mormons. [/stuffy British accent] Shall I start referencing the apologetics websites now? Or would you even bother reading what they had to say?
|
|
|
Post by skyfire on Mar 26, 2009 16:19:35 GMT -5
I have a native niece (adopted) who used to run up to people and say "I'm a Lamanite princess". I was always concerned about that, isn't that like a little black kid running up to people saying "I'm a nigger prince"? Oh, and she didn't turn white when she was baptized, which the BoM makes clear should of happened. Actually, it doesn't. From what I've seen, this is a misconception based on a single incident from the BoM; other Lamanites who were members of the church remained as such.
|
|
|
Post by skyfire on Mar 26, 2009 16:20:55 GMT -5
Though this is an excellent example how religions are generally full of shit, it does make me wonder if there are any mormon anthropologists out there. They exist, it's just that at present there's more people going into the social sciences, theology, and linguistics right now.
|
|
|
Post by skyfire on Mar 26, 2009 16:24:03 GMT -5
Isn't it also true that Joseph Smith was arrested and charged with fraud in (I think) New York just a few years before he made the claims about speaking with god? I've read this, but it has been a while so I'm not 100% sure. He was indeed charged, but no conclusive evidence of a verdict has come forth (despite claims from a number of critics) and there is an assortment of circumstantial evidence to suggest that he was ultimately let go (such as the "conviction notice" one critic turned up ultimately being revealed to have been nothing more than a fee for a pre-trial hearing). LDS apologist Jeff Lindsay discusses the matter on his site, and includes links to some other essays dealing with the matter.
|
|
|
Post by skyfire on Mar 26, 2009 16:30:44 GMT -5
Last post for right now. I have nothing to add, I'll just keep on reading. I can't remebmer where exactly, but I've heard that Joseph Smith was well known as a compulsive liar. [/quote] Critics of the church who make this argument hang their hat on two tidbits: 1. An account by his mother stating that he had a vivid imagination and loved to tell stories. 2. A series of affidavits collected by a man named Philastus Hurlbut that accuse Smith of being an unsavory person. Problem is, the former is largely meaningless; it only indicates that had he gotten a better education, he might have had a career as a writer. The latter is a point of contention. Hurlbut had been twice excommunicated from the church due to conduct unbecoming (including what is believed to be sexual misconduct), and after being ejected the second time he was actually arrested for threatening to murder Joseph Smith; this is why E. D. Howe's name appears on Hurlbut's finished product, as Hurlbut's reputation was such that even people hostile to the church wouldn't have touched the book. Not only is Hurlbut thus a weak link in the process, there have been allegations that Hurlbut himself wrote some of the affidavits ahead of time and tricked some of the people he spoke with into signing them; they couldn't have read what they were signing, and so Hurlbut could have told them anything.
|
|
|
Post by m52nickerson on Mar 26, 2009 16:54:11 GMT -5
There is no evidence for any sort of religion that even vaguely resembles Christianity in pre-Columbian Meso-American culture. Wrong.The entire first half of this page here is a recounting of descriptions given by Catholic clergy of instances wherein Native beliefs that they encountered in the Americas bore resemblance to elements of Christian theology. Footnotes are even offered to show source citations. Resemblances such as a God, resurrection, virgin birth etc. These are found in many religions through out history. If anything is shows that all religions can trace their origins back to the beginning of human history. Christianity is know for borrowing ideas from older religions.
|
|