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Post by The Lazy One on Mar 3, 2009 11:37:14 GMT -5
So... Who wants to reply to all two hundred fifty marks? OR Who wants to write a tl;dr-style atheist copypasta bomb? You know, I have half a mind to reply to all 250. I probably won't do it all in one day, though (even I don't have that much time).
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Post by The_L on Mar 3, 2009 14:29:32 GMT -5
I actually know where one of these logical fallacies came from: 104. You think Satanists are Christians because they "worship a Christian god". This is a gross misinterpretation of numerous statements by Isaac Bonewits, who is a Wiccan, not an atheist.[/i] Isaac's argument is that those people who become Satanists for the sole purpose of rebelling against the Christian norm fail hard because, by using a word that is most commonly used to describe the enemy of the Christian God, they are identifying themselves to the rest of the world in terms of said god. Bonewits has made fun of Satanists on numerous occasions, for a variety of reasons, but this is his favorite complaint. He even wrote a song called "With Friends Like These" on his website. Guess what it's about. (Naturally, there are other reasons people become Satanists. I am not, in any way, trying to paint all Satanists with the same brush. I am not Isaac Bonewits, and my linking to his site does not imply that I endorse everything he says.)
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Gray
New Member
Posts: 41
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Post by Gray on Mar 3, 2009 14:53:26 GMT -5
That hurt my head. Can people really be that stupid?
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Post by The Lazy One on Mar 3, 2009 15:00:33 GMT -5
Response Part One- probably won't do the whole thing today, I'm not feeling very well and want to take a nap after this.
# You became an atheist when you were 10 years old, based on ideas of God that you learned in Sunday School. Your ideas about God haven't changed since.
[glow=red,2,300]Nope. I was still a little fundie-let when I was 10. I didn't become an atheist until I was fifteen. Nope, nope, and nope. Fail right off the bat.[/glow]
# You think that the primary aim of an omnibenevolent God is for people to have FUN.
[glow=red,2,300]No, if there was a god and he was omnibenevolent he wouldn't be all up in people's face after they die, saying stuff like, "Oops, you believed in the wrong incarnation of me. Go get toasted like a marshmellow in hell![/glow]
# You believe that extra drippy ice-cream is a logical proof against the existence of God, because an omniscient God would know how to stop the ice-cream from being extra drippy, an omnipotent God would have the ability to stop the ice-cream from being extra drippy, and by golly, an omnibenevolent God wouldn't want your ice-cream to be extra drippy.
[glow=red,2,300]Ice cream? Yum, I'll take some coffee flavored. Seriously, what kind of god would be worried about people's ice cream unless he was the god of snacks or something? Your argument is invalid.[/glow]
# Although you've memorized a half a dozen proofs that He doesn't exist, you still think you're God's gift to the ignorant masses. [glow=red,2,300] Well, I am Ceiling Cat's gift to the ignorant masses... jk. No god, therefore how can I be a gift from something that doesn't exist? [/glow]
# You believe the astronomical size of the universe somehow disproves God, as if God needed a tiny universe in order to exist. [glow=red,2,300] That thought had never even crossed my mind until you brought it up.[/glow]
# You think questions like, "Can God create a rock so big that He cannot lift it?" and, "Can God will Himself out of existence?" are perfect examples of how to disprove God's omnipotence and ultimately how to disprove God. When someone proves to you the false logic behind the questions (i.e. pitting God's omnipotence against itself), you desperately try to defend the questions, but then give up and go to a different Christian site to ask them. [glow=red,2,300] Yeah, it's called thinking. Try it sometime. You'll like it. I promise.[/glow]
# Related to the above, you spend a great deal of your spare time writing to Christian websites asking them these very questions.
[glow=red,2,300] Nope, honey, you think way too highly of yourself. Most of my spare time is spent in much more entertaining ways.[/glow]
# You declare on a public forum that you are "furious at God for not existing."
[glow=red,2,300]I am offended. Why would I be mad at something that doesn't exist? [/glow]
# You spend hours arguing that a-theism actually means "without a belief in God " and not just " belief that there is no god" as if this is a meaningful distinction in real life. [glow=red,2,300] Circular logic is circular. I can't imagine any self-respecting atheist doing that. [/glow]
# You consistently deny the existence of God because you personally have never seen him but you reject out of hand personal testimony from theists who claim to have experienced God as a reality in their lives. [glow=red,2,300] If you start to see stuff that's not there, you need antipsychotic medication. Go find a psychiatrist. [/glow]
# You can make the existence of pink unicorns the center-piece of a philosophical critique.
[glow=red,2,300] The IPU, I presume? Oh come on, everyone uses the FSM now! [/glow]
# You insist that "the burden of proof is on he that alleges/accuses", and "it's impossible to prove a negative", then state "That's what Christians do. They lie. Their most common lie is that they were once atheists." When reminded about the burden of proof bit, you reply with, "Well, prove Christians don't lie!" [glow=red,2,300] Everyone lies- it's human nature. Now cut the bullshit and stop trying to paint yourselves as saintly creatures. You lie, the president lies, your mom lies, that guy who sits next to you at Starbucks lies... I can point to whoever and chances are they have lied at least one point in their life. [/glow]
# You adamantly believe that the "God of the gaps" idea is an essential tenet of orthodox Christian faith espoused by all the great Christian thinkers throughout history.
[glow=red,2,300]What the hell is the god of the gaps? [/glow]
# When you were a child, someone came down with a deadly disease and prayed and prayed for God to take it away. God did not remove the disease and your friend died. You ask other Christians why they had to die when they were such a nice person and never harmed anyone. Dissatisfied with their answers, you suddenly decide that there is no God and that all Christians are nothing but lying, conniving con artists and hypocrites....all that is except for your friend who died.
[glow=red,2,300] The most important person to me died a while back. I didn't blame god- I blamed people who were stopping vital stem-cell research that could have made my great-grandma a new heart. [/glow]
# You call a view held by less than ten percent of the American public "common sense".
[glow=red,2,300]A-yup. It is common sense. If 90% of the American public believed the moon was made out of cheesecake and strawberry Pocky, would you think that was common sense?[/glow]
# You're a spoiled fifteen year old boy who lives in the suburbs and you go into a chat room to declare that, "I know there is no God because no loving God would allow anyone to suffer as much as I...hold on. My cell phone's ringing." [glow=red,2,300] First off, I'm seventeen. And I'm a girl. And no, I have never done anything like that. [/glow]
# You attack your fellow atheists, who hold the "belief that there is no god", calling them "liars," and state that, "I do not deny the existence of any god. I just don't believe in any." Then you tell someone that their God is "made up." When someone calls you on this, you state, "I never made such a claim." [glow=red,2,300] I don't know if it's 'cause I'm sick, but I couldn't make heads or tails of that one. If anyone wants to refute that one for me I'd appreciate it. [/glow]
# Going with the definition of "without a belief in God", you insist that all people are born atheists, and that dogs, cats, rocks, and trees are as well. You make statements like, "My dog is an atheist. Ask him about his lack of belief." [glow=red,2,300] ATHEISTIC ROCKS! WAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Uh, by necessity things that are not capable of cognitive function are not atheists or theists, since they can't comprehend deities/lack of thereof. [/glow]
# You believe that if something cannot be touched, seen, heard, or measured in some way, then it must not exist, yet you fail to see the irony of your calling Christians "narrow-minded". [glow=red,2,300] Again, I can't make any sense of this one... sorry. [/glow]
# You say that there is no God and that those who believe in God do so in blind faith, yet your claim that there is no God also rests on blind faith.
[glow=red,2,300]Well, depends on what you consider blind faith. You guys have never seen a god, yet you believe in him. We haven't seen one so we don't believe in it. Guess who has more proof? [/glow]
# While you don't believe in God, you feel justified on bashing God or attacking those who believe in something that you KNOW doesn't exist, fighting against or even discussing about a non-existent being are the symptoms of mental illness! [glow=red,2,300] Mental illness is a bit of a touchy subject for me, but if someone walks around muttering under their breath to an invisible penguin named Harold you'd be a little weirded out. It's the same thing. [/glow]
# You complain when Christians appeal to their emotions when justifying their belief in God yet you feel justified on appealing to your emotions for lack of belief in God. [glow=red,2,300] Hey, whatever floats your boat. You want to believe in god because it makes you feel good? That's your prerogative. Just don't expect me to believe because it makes you feel good.
[/glow]
# You blame God for the starvation, sickness, pain and suffering in the world...when, indeed, it is MAN's greed, politics, selfishness and apathy that not only causes, but also ignores the sick and the starving masses. We aren't our brothers' keepers....but we should be.
[glow=red,2,300]Again, it comes down to this: if god exists and was good, then why the hell would he sit back and watch his creation screw itself over. Babies dying of AIDS in Africa did nothing to deserve it. All I know is that if I was god I would lay the divine smackdown on all of the stupid evil fuckers in this world, including people who try to blame those same little babies' deaths on things like homosexuality. I don't understand how a good god would allow things like that to happen. [/glow]
More later. Naptime now.
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Post by The Lazy One on Mar 3, 2009 17:03:30 GMT -5
Naptime over. Time for Round Two!
# You believe that planes, computers, calculators, compasses, etc, were "all obviously designed," yet the human body, being intricately more complex was "obviously a product of biological evolution." It seems the more complex the apparatus, the more obvious the "fact" that it was not designed.
[glow=red,2,300] Appendixes, bitch, explain those! No intelligent designer would have made them! [/glow]
# You claim that evolution and the big bang are two entirely separate theories that explain different aspects of the universe, yet, in what school of learning can you find any real separation or distinction between the two? [glow=red,2,300] Uh, maybe the fact that the Big Bang is a theory about how the UNIVERSE got here and evolution is a theory about how WE got here?[/glow]
# As a member of the Skeptic's Society you pride yourself on being skeptical of extraordinary claims. You also pride yourself on silencing everyone who is skeptical of the extraordinary claims of evolution.
[glow=red,2,300]I don't belong to no Skeptic's Society![/glow]
# Isaac Newton does not count as an example of a great scientist who believed in the Bible since he died before the Origin of Species was published. [glow=red,2,300] Issac Newton was a great scientist. Whether he believed in the bible or not is a moot point. [/glow]
# When you watch a punt returner run a 93 yard touchdown, you marvel at what evolution has done for the human race. But when someone gets cancer, you blame God for it. [glow=red,2,300] No, god had nothing to do with it. [/glow]
# When you're discussing the origin of the world, the phrase "uncaused cause(God)" is a stupid, meaningless thing to say. You will, however, settle for "uncaused effect(the world without God)".
[glow=red,2,300] Uncaused cause doesn't even mean anything, stupid! It's an oxymoron! [/glow]
# You descended from apes.(Think about it.)
[glow=red,2,300]Uh, so did you. [/glow]
# You think that humans are products of chance but when it comes to human reason we can believe in logic! (Think about it !) [glow=red,2,300] Again, Mr. Buzzardhut, what's your point? [/glow]
# You think you arrived at your position because you are a free-thinker who rationally weighed the evidence, and then freely chose atheism over theism. YET, you also believe that your thinking and actions are nothing more than the FIXED reactions of the atoms in your brain that are governed by the Laws of Chemistry and Physics. [glow=red,2,300] Maybe I'm still sick but that made no sense at all to me. Yes, we have atom reactions in our brains. Your point is? [/glow]
# You love to castigate Christians for being "anti-science" if they deny evolution from goo to you via the zoo, and to preach that they should adapt their thinking to the "science" of our day. But you also castigate the Church of 400 years ago for being anti-science, when it DID adapt its thinking to the science of ITS day, i.e. Ptolemaic cosmology, then joined with the Aristotelian scientists of the universities in rejecting Galileo!
[glow=red,2,300] That was your lot, not us. [/glow]
# You think that some guy named "Dr Dino" with no scientific credentials represents mainstream Evangelical thinking and scholarship about evolution and creation, and thus by spending inordinate amounts of time attacking him you are somehow dismantling the arguments of scholarly dissenters from evolution, creationists with earned Ph. D.s in science, and of advocates of intelligent design. [glow=red,2,300] You guys are the ones who keep referencing Hovind, not us![/glow]
# You claim poker-faced that "social Darwinism" and its spawn of eugenics have absolutely no connection to the biological theories propounded by Charles Darwin in "On The Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or The Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life"[glow=red,2,300]
Darwin didn't come up with Social Darwinism, so no, it's not connected to his Origin of Species. [/glow]
# You have recently stuck a Darwin fish on your car in the hopes the people with the Jesus fish on theirs will be offended. [glow=red,2,300] HA, no. I have considered getting a Linux fish because it's funny, but I'm too lazy. [/glow]
# You also claim that not only is there no connection between Darwin's theories and the doctrines of social Darwinism and eugenics (despite the fact that the term eugenics was coined and advocated by Darwin's cousin Francis Galton, who acknowledged his debt to Origin), but that none of these philosophical positions have any connection to the modern fields of sociobiology and evolutionary psychology.
[glow=red,2,300]You keep talking but all I hear is you going, "Blah blah blah blah". So what? Galton said those things, not Darwin. A person isn't judged by his or her relatives, you know. Chances are you have a murderer/drug dealer/psychopath/atheist (the horror!)/evolutionist/etc somewhere in your bloodline. Are you judged by your crazy Uncle Steve who's doing time in the penitentiary for running a meth lab? No. [/glow]
# You can claim with as straight face on sites like Talk Origins that "Evolution does not have moral consequences" despite the fact that prominent evolutionary advocates like Richard Dawkins and Daniel Dennett vehemently assert that evolution does transcend biology in a way that has a profound effects upon ethics. [glow=red,2,300] Citation needed. Link me to where Dennet and Dawkins say that.
[/glow] # When the Pope says that God may have used evolution, he is an enlightened religious leader whom Christians should listen to. When the Pope preaches on the sanctity of human life from conception, and thus denounces abortion, he's just a senile religious bigot who should keep his opinions to himself. [glow=red,2,300] Personally, I dislike abortion. I wish it didn't have to happen. But sometimes it's the only option. I probably wouldn't get an abortion but it's not my business whether Sally and Jane have one. [/glow]
# Concerning the origins of life, you feel that though the chances of life forming without an intelligent creator are small it DID indeed happen that way. And yet you don't believe me when a rock, coming from my direction, hits you in the back of the head and I tell you, "I didn't throw it. There was a sudden shift in the earth's gravitational pull and the rock levitated into your head...Sure the chances are small but it DID happen that way." [glow=red,2,300] You chucking a rock at me has nothing to do with how the world got formed. Also, if the earth's gravitational pull changed, WE'D FREAKING NOTICE! We'd be floating about![/glow]
# When you're shown that your view of origins is silly, you can only respond, "Well...at least it's better than believing in some invisible SKY DADDY!" [glow=red,2,300] How is my view of origins any sillier than yours? Maybe Ceiling Cat created the world, and you're going to the Basement when you die! That's just as credible as yours![/glow]
# When a Christian points out the impossibility of a biological system (or feature) forming by pure chance you accuse them of invoking a "God of the gaps". YET, when you are asked how a particular feature could come about solely by chance you invoke "Evolution of the gaps" (i.e., we don't know HOW but we do know that Evolution MUST have done it!)
[glow=red,2,300] God of the gaps again. I don't know what that is- anyone who wants to fill this in, go ahead.[/glow]
# You claim antibiotic-resistant bacteria is proof protozoa evolved into a person. [glow=red,2,300] I wouldn't go that far but it is proof of evolution. If bacteria can evolve to resist antibiotics it could evolve in to other things as well. [/glow] # You insist that science is completely partial to all ideas, is not dogmatic and researches all possibilities -- except creationism and/or intelligent design. [glow=red,2,300] Because that shit isn't science. It's shit. Saying a magic dude mad the world is just like saying, "HAI GUISE MY TOE JAM CAN CURE CANCER!"[/glow]
# You claim Creationists don't research on evolution websites before debating against it. Luckily you caught this useful weapon against Christians at the evolution site you learned all about creation doctrine from. [glow=red,2,300] I like to lurk around on your lot's sites. When I refute stuff, I use all your own arguments. [/glow]
# You think that every scientist who believes in Creationism and doesn't mindlessly accept evolution as a fact is a "kook," but you believe that Francis Crick (Nobel Prize winning co-discoverer of DNA), who reached into his nether regions and pulled out the "theory" of Directed Panspermia (which states with absolutely no support that aliens seeded the earth with life - see the movie "Mission to Mars"), is a great evolutionist scientist. [glow=red,2,300] What the futon is Directed Panspermia?[/glow]
# When a creationist points out problems with the evolutionist model you claim that the whole point of science is to answer problems like these. But if you can point out even one problem in the creationist model it should instantly be abandoned as absurd. [glow=red,2,300] Look, we can test the evolution model. But until one day I can point at a bit of pocket lint and say "I AM THE GODDESS OF THIS LINT! LET THERE BE PEOPLE ON IT!" and little people show up on the pocket lint, I won't believe it.[/glow]
# You are a person who absolutely believes that life came from nonlife, yet absolutely deny the possibility of anyone rising from the dead. [glow=red,2,300] When my great-grandma comes back to visit me, then sure, I'll believe it. [/glow]
# You won't bet $10 on the football game because a 50/50 chance isn't good enough, but you have no problem gambling with your life on the nearly impossible odds of a cell randomly generating from nothing. [glow=red,2,300] Uh, am I going to die tomorrow because I believe in evolution? No. I might die tomorrow, but it won't be because I believe in evolution. [/glow]
# Engaging the "slippery slope" fallacy, you think you can invalidate the whole bible by discrediting Genesis, since 'the whole bible either stands together or falls apart'. However, when a Creationist tries to invalidate the whole doctrine of naturalistic evolution by exposing the sheer improbability and lack of evidence of abiogenesis, you note this point as 'irrelevant'.
[glow=red,2,300]What? If Genesis can be discredited then Genesis is discredited. The rest of the Bible does a good job of discrediting the rest of the Bible. [/glow]
# You think the movie "Inherit the Wind" best describes the eternal struggle of how an evolutionist is being treated by creationists in this religious society. And you can personally relate your life to the Scopes Monkey Trial. [glow=red,2,300] Never seen it, but I have gotten into heated discussions with people in my classes thanks to a paper I wrote about evolution.[/glow]
# You ignore "Time Magazine's" poll, which states that only 28% of Americans believe in evolution. But of course, "Time Magazine" must been run by creationists. [glow=red,2,300] Is that true? 28% seems really, really low. [/glow]
# You teach a belief only held by 28% of a nation, as truth beyond any shadow of a doubt because only educated people believe in evolution. Yet of course, you ignore that fully educated scientists in most other nations have proven against Darwinian theory. Like the Chinese paleontologist who reportedly says: "In China we can criticize Darwin but not the government. In America you can criticize the government but not Darwin."
[glow=red,2,300] You morons criticize Darwin all the time! [/glow]
# You think man evolved from monkeys but get mad when somebody calls you one.
[glow=red,2,300] Why would I be pissed if someone called me a monkey? My parents used to call me "Monkey Kid" when I was little since I liked the jungle gym at the playground so much. [/glow]
# You think that if schools teach the Intelligent Design theory of creation,they should also teach the "stork theory" of where babies come from.[glow=red,2,300]
Hey, it's an alternate theory! All alternate theories should get equal time according to you guys![/glow]
# You demand that Christians study advanced evolutionary biology before making claims about natural selection. You then claim that their theological ideas, which you have never examined before, are pure nonsense. [glow=red,2,300] I might be in high school but I have extensively studied Christian theology. While I might not have a Th.D. I think I understand your side pretty well for someone my age. [/glow]
# On the other hand, you demand that Christians who have NOT studied evolutionary biology ought to go ahead and publicly commit to arguments about it, because you want to trap or embarrass them with your own knowledge of the subject, which is limited to quoting Gould and Futuyama. [glow=red,2,300] What the hell is Futuyama? Do you mean Futurama? Futurama is an awesome show. Go watch it- I'm serious. And I like to think I know a bit more about evolution than "Evolution does not work that way!"[/glow]
# You claim that the 'God' mentioned by Albert Einstein and Steven Hawkings is nature and that they were atheists, then claim that you have no religion, which is defined by the dictionary as "Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe." [glow=red,2,300]
What Hawking and Einstein believe/believed is not my business. Nor is it yours. [/glow]
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Post by Radiation on Mar 3, 2009 17:28:11 GMT -5
[glow=green,4,500]Dang! Daaaayyuum! That's a fucking long ass list! I couldn't read all that shit and I really admire those that do. I saw this in Public Admin and I was like, "Shit, this is a long ass post![/glow][/color]
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Post by Sandafluffoid on Mar 3, 2009 17:31:30 GMT -5
# You attack your fellow atheists, who hold the "belief that there is no god", calling them "liars," and state that, "I do not deny the existence of any god. I just don't believe in any." Then you tell someone that their God is "made up." When someone calls you on this, you state, "I never made such a claim." I don't know if it's 'cause I'm sick, but I couldn't make heads or tails of that one. If anyone wants to refute that one for me I'd appreciate it. You aren't the only one, this is just buzzardhut forgetting his medication and creating imaginary scenarios. As for the God of the Gaps, this is bascially the observation that as scientific knowledge expands the number of things directly attributed to God shrinks. Basically when faced with scientific proof the God cannot do x the god of the gaps retort is to say "But we do not know what causes y, therefore God causes y"
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Post by trike on Mar 3, 2009 18:18:24 GMT -5
Fuck, I fit nothing on that list! Where do I have to turn in my Fundie Atheist badge at?
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Post by The Lazy One on Mar 3, 2009 18:30:44 GMT -5
ROUND THREE! LAZY 2, FUNDIES 0! # Any scholar who believes in a historical Jesus must be a theist. If they are an atheist, then they must secretly want to be a theist.
[glow=red,2,300] Hey, I'm willing to believe there was a historical Jesus. I just don't believe he was a deity incarnate. [/glow] # You insist that "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence", then claim that Jesus never existed.
[glow=red,2,300] Read my above post.[/glow] # You contend that no war in history has ever been created by non-belief. Yet, when you are told that 176 million people lost their lives in wars during the last century, created by non-believers like Stalin, Lenin, Mao and Hitler, to name only a few, you reply that those wars fought were fought in the name of ideology and not 'atheism' as atheists "…don't fly planes into buildings or start wars."[glow=red,2,300] Hitler wasn't an atheist, for one, and when was the last time you've ever heard of kamikaze atheists? [/glow] # You accept (and quote back to Christians) any number of works that say Jesus wasn't the Son of God and call them "honest", "thought-provoking" and 'scholarly" proof, even when they completely contradict each other and come to completely different conclusions.[glow=red,2,300] Well, I do love Sam Harris' work, but I don't go around quoting The End of Faith at people as proof of no god.[/glow] # You think it's entirely possible for documents dated to the 10th century to have been forged in the 14th. (Used of Tacitus once.)[glow=red,2,300] It's called lying. I've dated homework I did on the 20th as having been done on the 17th so I don't lose points. What's to stop ancient people from doing the same, only on a lot bigger scale?[/glow] # You believe that when our forefathers are framing the Constitution, they're staunch deists, but when they're beating their slaves, they're Bible-believing Christians.[glow=red,2,300] It doesn't matter what religion you are, there are always going to be inhumane people. [/glow] # You think that the Declaration of Independence is unconstitutional because it mentions "the creator".[glow=red,2,300] Uh, the Declaration of Independence predates the Constitution. Therefore by default it's sort of "un-Constitutional".[/glow] # On, that basis, You think that the Declaration is therefore void and the United States should return to British rule.[glow=red,2,300] Nope. Try again. I'm proud to be an American atheist. [/glow] # When it is returned to British rule, you plan to go straight to London and tell those Brits that having the Anglican church as a state church violates the constitutional separation of church and state.[glow=red,2,300] Uh, considering I don't really want to go back to British rule, that wouldn't work too well. Besides, I don't have a passport anyway.[/glow] # When you use a historical point to prove Christianity is false (i.e., pagan parallel to Christianity), history is objective truth. When a Christian uses real historical scholarship to prove you false, history was written by subjective men and therefore cannot be trusted.[glow=red,2,300] Hey, there's fundie pagans too. Believe me, until you've been yelled at by a very zealous witch about why being an atheist is in violation of the natural order you don't know weird.[/glow] # You reject what Cornelius Tacitus wrote about Jesus, dismissing it as "too late", but you readily accept what he wrote about Tiberius and Augustus.[glow=red,2,300] Both of those other guys were too early for him, too. But then again, nowadays we have people who write about Lincoln and Washington even though its 2009.[/glow] # 100+ year old scholarship is good enough for you.[glow=red,2,300]It got the ball rolling for modern science.[/glow] # You think Bolshevik Revolution leader Leon Trotsky was a far better person than Mother Theresa.[glow=red,2,300] I didn't know either personally, but from what I understood Mother Theresa was a self-serving, arrogant person who fed off the misery. [/glow] # You apparently think the first century AD was in the Stone Age, since you refer to Christianity as "Stone Age beliefs".[glow=red,2,300] Bronze age! BRONZE AGE! There's a difference![/glow] # When Christians tell you that The Bible is inerrant you go on and list a bunch of "contradictions"; when the Christian shows to you that those are not contradictions but the result of taking things out of context you list more "contradictions" when the Christian does the same with those you complain that he/she is just making stuff up and/or that the answer the Christian gives you are not "satisfactory" and proceed of course to list more "contradictions".[glow=red,2,300] Believe me, there's plenty of contradictions without taking anything out of context.[/glow] # You like to complain about the wars and killings found in the Bible and like to claim that this is some sort of proof to conclude that it is not The Word of God. When the Christian points out that the Bible is about reality and that it exposes humanity and all what comes with it, you complain that it is nonsense and that no good God would allow for that to happen. You would then just claim that it is too perfect and not true.[glow=red,2,300] What kind of god would let good people be raped, tortured, and murdered just to prove how "real" he was? Let me reiterate: if I was a god I would have laid the divine smackdown on people who do those things, something your deity obviously hasn't done.[/glow] # You like to list contradictions to Christians like if you some how pretend that Christians are not aware of them or that they are igorant about their own religion.[glow=red,2,300]A lot of you all are- you don't know the first thing about what's in your book. [/glow] # You evidently think that slaughtering 6,000,000 Jews is no different from using sugar in your porridge,since whenever someone points out that Hitler's actions show him to VERY UN-Christian,you exclaim "No true Scotsman uses sugar in his porridge!"[glow=red,2,300] Oh yeah, killing people is just like putting sugar in breakfast cereal. Where did you pull that from? The True Scotsman fallacy has nothing to do with porridge! It has to do with all of you saying, "Hitler killed people so he couldn't be a true Christian!" [/glow] # You think historians Michael Grant and Robin Lane Fox are "religious nutcases" for believing Jesus existed.[glow=red,2,300] Never heard of them. [/glow] # You refuse to use the word "excruciating" because of its origins in describing the agonies of crucifixion. (ex crucis - "from the cross")[glow=red,2,300] I don't know about you, but when I broke my collar bone, I was in excruciating pain. [/glow] # When a Christian tells you that in order to fully understand The Word of God you need to open up your heart and allow The Bible to speak to you and to read The Bible by placing confidence in God, you say that the Bible is just a book and that why you don't have to do the same with Harry Potter.[glow=red,2,300]I've wondered that myself- do I need to open up my heart to read Harry Potter? Do I need to open up my heart to read my Java textbook? Seriously? I might get better grades if I did... LET'S TRY IT![/glow] # You always refer to C.S. Lewis as "that traitor."[glow=red,2,300] Nope. I rather enjoyed his Narnia books. [/glow] # You desperately wish that Stalin and Mao hadn't been atheists.[glow=red,2,300]Evil people come in any religion. [/glow] # You absolutely insist a Christian recognize your nonscholar as an expert (G. A. Wells) but refuse to recognize his legitimate scholar as expert (Colin Hemer).Hey, if they want to pass off someone as an expert, I'll let them. I'm not the magical monkey that decides who's a scholar and who's not.# You not only spell "God" with a lower case "g," but you also add an "E" to "B.C.," and replace the word "Christ" with an "x." Yet, when asked to name the planets you have no problem with spouting out the appropriate list of Roman Gods. Heck, you'll even spell them with capital letters! Not only that, you can even spell and pronounce the name of the 800-mile-diameter Trans-Neptunian Object 'Quaoar', and are delighted that it comes from the creation mythology of the Tongva people (aka the San Gabrielino Native Americans). [glow=red,2,300] Quaoar? Quo-our-are? Is that how you pronounce it? Also, BC? We've only ever had BCE in our textbooks... I didn't know there was such a thing as BC until recently.[/glow] # In addition, you say that terms like "AD", "BC" and "christmas" (as opposed to "winter holiday season" ) are medieval, outdated, bigoted poison and must be eliminated at all costs from the world, yet the fact that our months and days are largely named after Roman, viking etc. figures (eg. Janus - January, Thor - Thursday) is a glowing testimony to the diverse and wonderful nature of human history[glow=red,2,300] MERRY CHRISTMAS! MERRY CHRISTMAS! MERRY CHRISTMAS![/glow] # You think that religious wars have killed more people than any other kind of war, even though the largest wars of the last 200 years (World War I and II, Civil War, etc.) had no discernable religious causes.[glow=red,2,300] WWII resulted in the deaths of 6,000,000 people based on their religion.[/glow] # You think that the Spanish Inquisition killed millions (or at least hundreds of thousands), even though the population of all of Spain at the time of the Inquisition was only about five million, and the actual total killed numbers about 2000. When informed of this, you accuse the informer of belittling or being insensitive to the deaths of 2000 individuals.[glow=red,2,300]It IS kind of assholish to think that 2000 lives are worth less than a million lives... all humans have value.[/glow] # You bring up the alleged 'horrors' of the Spanish Inquisition to show how evil the church is. When shown that the SI was not the horror that it was painted to be, you switch gears and ask if the believer notes this because they think people are justified to feel moral revulsion with the Spanish Inquisition as it is commonly understood.[glow=red,2,300] Word salad, don't get it. Again, not sure if it's the cold medicine or if it's just that weirdly worded.[/glow] # In a coffee table conversation you hear religion represented in a positive light. You immediately start preaching about the Inquisition and the Crusades to put things back on track. After all, "we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door".[glow=red,2,300] Hey, one of my best friends is a Muslimah and we have good discussions. She represents her religion in a positive light. I represent my beliefs in a positive light. We don't try to kill each other. Try it some time, it's fun to meet new people with different beliefs.[/glow] # You believe that Christians burned down the Great Library of Alexandria. When you learn that this was impossible, you assert that it is obvious that Christians did burn a lot of ancient books. When you are shown that this too is false, you wait a while, then make the same claim again, hoping that the person who corrected you with the facts won't notice.[glow=red,2,300] I don't know anything about the burning of the library at Alexandria but during the middle ages Christians went on a burning rampage and destroyed lots of stuff.[/glow] # You desperately confer with other skeptics to try and refute the evidence that Hitler's Holocaust was evolution-inspired, because, darn it, you just GOTTA prove that Hitler was a Christian.[glow=red,2,300] "Gott mit Uns" mean anything to you, Mr. Fundie? It means "God with Us". Hitler repeatedly referenced his Christianity. [/glow] # You're convinced, despite evidence to the contrary, that Christianity was responsible for the Jewish holocaust because, dang it, that just SEEMS like something Christians would do.[glow=red,2,300] Hitler might have been a Christian, but I don't think all Christians are genocidal maniacs. I'm sorry but I can't see my grandma or my mom killing millions of people just because they are Christian.[/glow] # You believe that Hitler claiming to be a Christian is undeniable proof that he was a Christian, while George Washington only claimed to be a Christian in order to win the people's favor.[glow=red,2,300] Hitler was a Christian. Washington may or may not have been. What's your point?[/glow] # You adamantly refuse to recognise the historical fact that "scientific atheism" was both a foundational philosophical position and an actual policy of the Soviet Union from the time of Lenin on, responsible for untold persecution, torture, suffering, humiliation and death far in excess of the numbers of the "victims" of Christianity.[glow=red,2,300] I've said it before- there are sucky people in every religion. Also, I thought it was Stalin who set up the gulags? [/glow] # On the other hand you further show your ignorance of history by constantly repeating "whoppers" about the numbers of victims of Christian Inquisitions, crusades and witchhunts dredged up from various unscholarly hate sites and passed off as historical fact.[glow=red,2,300]Let's think of it this way: if your lot hadn't killed so many people we'd have had the Enlightenment a lot faster. Medicine would have advanced. [/glow] # For example...you can claim with a poker face that 9 MILLION women were put to death as witches by Christian fanatics in pre-Enlightenment Europe.[glow=red,2,300] 9 million is a bit high... but I'd believe it. [/glow] # You assert that the 300 Protestants put to death under the reign of "Bloody Mary" in 16th century England stand as absolute proof of the inherent evil of Christianity but the tens upon tens of millions killed by Marxist regimes under Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot in the 20th century have absolutely NOTHING to do with the profound atheism inherent in these regimes.[glow=red,2,300] Atheism has nothing to do with killing people. You guys are so desperate to prove that Christianity has nothing to do with genocide. Atheism doesn't either.[/glow] # You really believe that the Enlightenment made people more enlightened. Uh, yeah. Medicine would still be, "Take two leeches and call me in a week if you survive" if it wasn't for the Enlightenment. # You think that Robert Green Ingersoll and Joseph McCabe are two of the greatest philosophers of religion ever to have lived - certainly far superior to nobodies like Thomas Aquinas or Blaise Pascal.[glow=red,2,300] Pascal's wager is BS- what are you going to do if you die and Ceiling Cat tells you to go to the Basement? Huh? Guess you wagered on the wrong god![/glow] # Indeed you believe that McCabe is "One of the giants of not only English Atheism, but world Atheism". [which could be construed as a slight on the intellectual quality of atheism].[glow=red,2,300] Well, you're not a genius either, so you can't talk![/glow] # You adhere to a false and fictionalised version of history gained from watching Hollywood movies such as Inherit the Wind so that you can (for example) conclude: "the controversy over creation and evolution was settled way back in 1925, when Clarence Darrow eviscerated William Jennings Bryan in a country courtroom in Dayton, Tennessee."[glow=red,2,300] Never seen it, so your argument is invalid. [/glow] # You think that Pope Leo X may have really called Christ a fable, because it's "the type of thing he would say," but you deny that God could have said what the Bible attributes to Him because it is recorded by "anonymous" witnesses. I don't know. I wasn't there so I don't know if he said it or not.# You've never understood why merely uttering the phrase "Christian America" is not considered to be a declaration of treason against the "TRUE" United States of America.[glow=red,2,300]There is no Christian America, and the types of people likely to say it are a bunch of loonies, so yes, it should be considered treason. The types of people who say that are more likely to belong to hate groups. You don't like that the US is a nation of EVERYONE, then you can GTFO. My ancestors didn't leave Lithuania so that their decendents could live in a theocracy- they were looking for a better life![/glow] # You think there's more evidence for the existence of Wonder Woman than for Jesus.[glow=red,2,300] No. Just no.[/glow] # You complain about desecrating the Koran while holding a burning Bible.[glow=red,2,300] Hey, I respect others' beliefs. [/glow] # You think religion is "the original war crime".[glow=red,2,300] You know Israel and Palestine? That fight has been going on for thousands of years, and it's because of their religions. [/glow] # You think the Ku Klux Klan and the Christian Identity movement are representative of "mainstream" Christianity.[glow=red,2,300] Mainstream Christianity is just diluted fundieness. [/glow] # You think serial killer Dennis "BTK" Rader is a "model Christian" and Olympic Park/abortion clinic bomber Eric Rudolph is a "good Christian boy". Anyone who argues otherwise is committing the "no true Scotsman" fallacy.[glow=red,2,300] I don't think that the BTK killer and Eric Rudolph are examples of all Christians- I think they are what happens when Christianity is taken too far. Just like I don't think Osama bin Laden is representative of all Muslims.[/glow] # You believe that "if it weren't for the U.S. Constitution, Christian leaders would be burning women at the stake."[glow=red,2,300]Witch trials, bitch. The Constitution prevents things like that from happening now.[/glow] # You continually argue that Hitler was a "real Christian" even when he and his fellow Nazis were slaughtering millions of people (and you "conveniently" ignore the very obvious distinction between someone claiming to be a Christian and someone actually living as a Christian, and the fact that the Nuremberg prosecutors denounced Nazism as fanatically ANTI-Christian!), but you deny that the scientists who rejected Galileo's work were real scientists.[glow=red,2,300] Mumbo-jumbo with something about Galileo. Sorry, head is too stuffed up to decipher this. [/glow] # You insist that the historical data is too sparse to know anything about the ancient world, but you then proceed to tell us what 'actually happened' anyway.[glow=red,2,300] I don't pretend to know everything that happened in the ancient world, and neither should you.[/glow] That's enough for one day. I'm on the 'Christians' part next, so I don't lose my place. Expect more tomorrow assuming I don't die from whatever it is that I have while I'm at school.
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Post by MozMode on Mar 3, 2009 18:54:42 GMT -5
Holy crap, The Lazy One, kudos to you for responding to it all. Sheeeesh. I shall exalt thee!
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Post by The Lazy One on Mar 3, 2009 18:57:14 GMT -5
Holy crap, The Lazy One, kudos to you for responding to it all. Sheeeesh. I shall exalt thee! Aw, thanks, and I'm not even done yet! But you have inspired me to do one more category tonight! ;D
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Post by The Lazy One on Mar 3, 2009 19:48:50 GMT -5
# You think if a Christian won't address your arguments, they are too frightened to do so, or know they can't answer them; but if they do address your arguments, you think it is because they are "threatened" by them.[glow=red,2,300]If they want to answer me, that's fine. If they don't want to answer me, a cat is that's fine too. Unlike you guys, I don't view every time someone doesn't try to refute me as an attack on my beliefs. [/glow] # Missionaries who give up their personal comfort to aid starving, impoverished and persecuted third-world people are actually "corrupting ancient tribal cultures with western religious dogma", while you sit at home and complain about the price of KFC.[glow=red,2,300]I don't like KFC, so that doesn't count. Bojangles on the other hand is good... Anyway, that's beside the point. If these people were there to help the people in the third world and nothing else, I would be applauding them. But have you heard the stories of the people who refuse to help people dying in Africa unless they convert? To me that's ghoulish and disgusting. [/glow] # You believe that any Christian who claims to have once been an atheist is either lying or was never a "true atheist."[glow=red,2,300] How come you guys think that any atheist who claims to have once been a Christian is either lying or was never a "true Christian"? [/glow] # You think that John Shelby Spong is a reputable theologian but that Ben Witherington is merely an ignorant biblicist.[glow=red,2,300]Spong is awesome! My mom has his books. Who is Ben Witherington? I've never heard of him, so I can't decide whether he's ignorant or not. [/glow] # You assert that the crimes and failings of some Christians (acting inconsistently with the teachings of Christ at that!) disproves the whole edifice of Christianity but that the crimes and failings of some atheists (acting consistently with the fact that atheism can provide no basis for objective morality!) should on no account be held against the philosophy of atheism.[glow=red,2,300] The majority of you fundies don't act the way Jesus did. I think if Jesus saw the way some of you behave he'd be upset. [/glow] # You assert that there is no absolute categories of good and evil, that all morals are merely personal, social and evolutionary constructs but then you can still describe Christians and Christianity as absolutely immoral, repugnant and evil and a danger to humanity and not feel even a twinge of hypocrisy at the monumental illogic of your position.[glow=red,2,300] Morals are social constructs, but every society seems to have ingrained morality. Do not kill, protect your children, and care for others are evident in every culture across history and even in the animal kingdom. But some Christians do not even follow these ingrained morals, nonetheless their self-imposed ones, like do not have sex before marriage, and being gay is bad. [/glow] # You think that Josh McDowell represents the apex of Christian scholarly apologetical thinking.[glow=red,2,300]Who's he?[/glow] # You lump all Christians in with whatever religious fruitcake is the flavour of the month, while living with the delusion that there are no atheistic weirdos out there.[glow=red,2,300] There's strange rangers in every group. I don't think that all Christians are like the guy that kidnapped the woman and held her hostage while he read the Bible to her. Don't think that all of us atheists are loonies. [/glow] # You KNOW that religion causes violence and repeatedly tell this to everyone, hoping to save the world, but you don't believe that TV violence causes any real life violence. In fact, you are offended by this objection, and you have already started to figure out how to refute it. To increase your fundy factor, you have decided not to study social sciences. (Once you heard about Rodney Stark's For the Glory of God - you certainly would not bother reading it - you thought that sociologists were Christian fundamentalists in stealth mode, trying to push religious worldviews.[glow=red,2,300] TV and videogames do not make people violent. I play Devil May Cry, Halo, and some others, and I haven't shot up my school. However, being told "We must destroy the infidels!" and "We must stamp out iniquity for the GLORY OF GOD! Praise the Lawd and pass the ammunition!" day in and day out will make anyone violent.[/glow] # You think that taking the Bible seriously is the obsession of a fanatical fringe group of right-wing, extremist Christians who do not represent the views of the historic Church or of contemporary enlightened, liberal, skeptical "Christians" who according to you supposedly "fill" the mainstream churches and who on close inspection pretty much reflect your own politically correct views and values - and skepticism - about God. [Sort of like former Bishop Spong].[glow=red,2,300]Hey, if you're trying to stone gay people to death and claiming that sleeping with someone before marriage is a crime worthy of death, then yes, I say you're extremist. Go live in Saudi Arabia or something. I think you'd like Sharia law. [/glow] # You claim that the theories and opinions of certain liberal scholars are absolute facts although you shy away from debating such issues with someone equally or better informed than you are.[glow=red,2,300] Hey, if you stay still long enough and you're up for it, I'll debate with you. I LOVE debating! [/glow] # You get angry when Christians tell you you're going to a place that you don't think exists.[glow=red,2,300]You'd get pissed if I told you that Ceiling Cat was going to condemn you to the Basement all the time. Why should it be any different for us?[/glow] # You're convinced that people only believe in God because they're afraid of going to hell...despite the fact that if there is no God, then there's probably no hell either.[glow=red,2,300] I know someone who is practically agnostic. But they are still Christian. Why? They are scared of hell.[/glow] # You consistently decry Christians for soliciting financial support yet find no problem in atheistic 'missionaries' doing the same thing."[glow=red,2,300]Hey, if you ask me for money, you'd better have a damn good reason for doing so, whether you're atheist or Christian. Do I look like an ATM?[/glow] # You think that 'mission statements' on Christian websites proves the authors are biased which automatically renders the material on those sites weak and unscholarly yet you see no problem with 'mission statements' glorifying naturalism found on atheistic websites.[glow=red,2,300]Mission statements are everywhere- companies have them, atheists have them, religions have them, universities have them, heck, my high school has one. I don't care if you have a mission statement or not. [/glow] # When a group of Sydney University (Australia) academics, including a historian, sign a public statement saying the Jesus Christ is "one of the great figures of history" and that his claims to be Son of God "bear up under closest scrutiny", this is a gross abuse of their position. But when Richard Dawkins uses his position as an Oxford professor to pontificate on his atheistic religion and related philosophical matters outside HIS field (animal behavior), that is a responsible use of academic freedom.[glow=red,2,300] Look, if some crazy people want to sign a statement saying that, I don't give a flying foot if they work at McDonald's, ExxonMobil, or a university. Just don't expect me to believe it.[/glow] # Further to the above, you're paranoid that these Christian academics will discriminate against you, even though their statement hasn't the remotest hint of that. But you applaud Michael Dini, a professor at Texas Tech, who refuses to recommend students for Medical School, even if they got "A"s in their courses, unless they not only understand but BELIEVE in goo-to-you evolution. And you're disgusted that creationist medical doctors have the gall to think they know more about medicine than Dini (who never practised medicine or even went to medical school), because by definition an evolutionist is more knowledgeable than a creationist on ANY subject![glow=red,2,300] Do YOU want a doctor that believes in creationism? Fine. You can have him/her. I'll take the doctor that knows about science, thank you very much.[/glow] # You think Christians are narrow-minded for believing in only one religion, but atheists are open-minded for believing in absolutely none.[glow=red,2,300] Hey, I let you have your beliefs, I let X have hers, I let Y have his, and I let Z have hers. You just don't let me and them have ours since we're not Christians. [/glow] # You believe that Christianity discriminates, because you have to join their religion in order to be a member of their religion.[glow=red,2,300] LOL WUT? That's so dumb I'm not even going to dignify it. [/glow] # You feel that Christians who go into atheist chat rooms are "shoving their beliefs down people's throats", and that atheists who go into Christian chat rooms are only trying to educate.[glow=red,2,300]I admit that I have trolled fundie boards before, but I wasn't trying to educate OR shove beliefs down people's throats. I did it for the lulz. [/glow] # You think it is a "slam dunk" proof against God when you ask why He doesn't stop horrible things like, i.e., child rape, but evade the reply that you obviously don't want God stopping your own sins by pointing out that it isn't your problem because you don't believe in God in the first place.[glow=red,2,300] I've said it before: If I was god, I would smite the shit out of people like that. There's nothing that pisses me off more than people who abuse children, and if I was a god, there would be divine retribution immediately.[/glow] # You are disgusted with Doctor Paul Vitz's book "Faith of the Fatherless: The Psychology of Atheism" because an educated person with a degree has linked atheism as a psychological condition. Yet, you have no remorse when you tell believers that they are a product of brainwashing, psycho conditioning and wishful thinking.[glow=red,2,300] I have a very good relationship with my dad, thankyouverymuch. [/glow] # You believe Freud's theory that all religious experiences are delusions, as the most revolutionary and truthful thought of all times. Yet, you overlook his heavy use of cocaine because "it can't be proven."[glow=red,2,300] Freud began modern psychology. I haven't studied his works extensively though. [/glow] # You recommend Michael Shermer's book "How We Believe" to all of your friends who are believers and believe that somehow his opinion will give insight into how we actually think. Yet of course, you ignore that Shermer doesn't have any education in Anthropology. Must be a coincidence.[glow=red,2,300] Never heard of it.[/glow] # You're stupid enough to think atheists are treated like second-class citizens. Yet of course, you spend most of your day belittling Christians and other religious people.[glow=red,2,300] I treat my mother and my grandmother very well. One of my best friends is a Muslimah, and my "secondary grandma" is a very strong Christian (Word, Miz Barbara! ). I have a lot of friends and people I respect who are religious. I only belittle the crazy people. [/glow] # You're convinced that all Christians are idiots. But when you meet the "rare" Christian who's clearly intelligent, you can only conclude that he was fooled into believing...by the idiots.[glow=red,2,300] Nope. View my above post. [/glow] # You think that the words "Christian" and "sane" are mutually exclusive.[glow=red,2,300] Again, look up two posts.[/glow] # You think that no Christian can ever be a patriotic American, because he will always side with the enemies of truth.[glow=red,2,300]I think it depends. If your church called on you to commit treason, odds are the more fundamental you are, the more likely you would be to do so. Timothy McVeigh, anyone? [/glow] # You're proud of being completely free of predjudice, unlike the "typical sociopathic Christian".[glow=red,2,300] I don't refer to any "typical sociopathic Christians". Everyone starts at neutral when they meet me. If you're cool like the religious people I am lucky enough to count among my friends, I like you. If you're nutso, then you quickly lose my respect. I don't care what your race, gender, orientation, religion, etc. are. If you're a good person, odds are I'll like you. [/glow] # You address Christians as "liar","sheepherder", or "looney toon".[glow=red,2,300] No. Only the liars get called "liar".[/glow] # You refer to Christian leaders as "fuehrer".[glow=red,2,300]No. Just no. [/glow] # You think Focus On The Family is a "white supremacist hate cult".
[glow=red,2,300] Focus on the Family is a hate cult. James Dobson's horrible doctrines messed up most of my childhood. It's taken a very long time for my family to heal from the destruction that Focus on the Family imposed[/glow]. # You think Satanists are Christians because they "worship a Christian god".[glow=red,2,300] Well, Satan/Shaytan is an Abrahamic construct... you do the math. [/glow] For some reason, that one took a lot longer than the others... next up is Contemporary Events.
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Post by schizophonic on Mar 3, 2009 21:21:54 GMT -5
Jesus Christ! That's one Hell of a list!
My favorite parts are the populist ones. "X% of the US doesn't believe in evolution!" "You're a minority arguing common sense!"
Actually, I'm opposed to the term "common sense." Fundie Christians can keep it. "Common" sense and knowledge are generally not good ways to argue.
But as far as the majority, if only 20% of America believed in gravity, would it cease to work?
Runner up: Christian music. POD really does suck. So does Creed. And yet, despite the message that life is meaningless without God, I love the Tribe of Judah record "Exit Elvis." I really don't care if a band's Christian. I'll listen to Gary Cherone mock John Lennon, FFS; it's possible to like "Christian" music. I don't care who people try and "gotcha" me with.
Also, test on mice. Test on rats. Test on embryos.
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Post by Rat Of Steel on Mar 3, 2009 22:00:11 GMT -5
[glow=red,2,300] Bronze age! BRONZE AGE! There's a difference![/glow] Though your point in that response is sound, it's actually the Iron Age, which began at about 1000 BC...E *smirks in Buzzardbreath's direction*The Bronze Age is before that, going back to between 5000 and up to 10000 BCE (in other words, Old, not New Testament). I've got my own set of rebuttals to Buzzardbreath's breathtaking inanity (yay, Judge Jones!), but since you're on such a roll here, I'll happily sit back and wait, and read.
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Post by m52nickerson on Mar 3, 2009 23:20:00 GMT -5
I got to number 3 and my ears started to bleed..........but am allergic to stupid.
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