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Post by jaydubs on Apr 9, 2009 22:04:32 GMT -5
Okay, let me introduce myself. I was raised non-religious, and have remained that way through four years of Catholic high school and the odd CCD class. I shift from deist to atheist to agnostic depending on my mood--frankly, I haven't bothered myself to think enough about the whole "God" question to make up my mind, so call me an "apatheist." I have no time whatsoever for religious moralizing. There is nothing more insane, IMO, than taking sexual advice from a lifelong virgin/pederast in a collar. I see abstinence-only education for the failure that it is. I think that women are just as qualified as men to be priests (or presidents, or CEOs or Navy Seals, or moose-shooting hockey moms if that tickles their fancy). Stem cell research can save lives, and should be allowed. And I need no invisible judge to tell me that human life has intrinsic value, and is something that all of us should enjoy fully--whether we are born or unborn. I do not think women are inferior. I am not a religious whacko. I oppose all acts of violence or intimidation committed by pro-lifers. I just happen to think that nobody should be denied the chance to experience life.
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Post by id82 on Apr 9, 2009 22:10:11 GMT -5
That's fine and all and your well entitled to your opinions. I'm pretty sure you're not alone out there in your stance on things. I believe abortion can be wrong depending on the situation but over all I am mainly for it.
As for the reason why you're so rare? I think it might have to do with the religious conservatives viewing everything in black and white. Your either a "pro-life conservative," or a "baby killing liberal, from the way they see things." There is usually no in between for them.
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Post by devilschaplain2 on Apr 9, 2009 22:11:45 GMT -5
Well, I consider myself pro-choice and anti-abortion. I feel that banning it outright and overturning Roe would be the wrong way to discourage abortions (except the ones that are necessary of course--rape, incest, health of the mother). If it were banned, we'd end up like El Salvador, where women who have back-alley abortions are promptly arrested and placed in prison. This sort of action simply exacerbates the problem.
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D'Coke
Full Member
In the service of the Church of Darwinian Materialism
Posts: 106
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Post by D'Coke on Apr 9, 2009 22:12:33 GMT -5
Rare, yes. You people do exist. But I find - from my point of view - that it's the metaphysical types better equipped to make the leap that the life of something that isn't really conscious is above the mother's decisions. There's no one to deny. Perhaps until a certain point anyway.
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Post by Vene on Apr 9, 2009 22:14:36 GMT -5
What do you do to the woman who gets the abortion? It's still going to happen even if it's illegal. And since it's illegal our court system requires punishment. So? What happens to her?
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Post by MozMode on Apr 9, 2009 22:14:45 GMT -5
Well, I consider myself pro-choice and anti-abortion. I feel that banning it outright and overturning Roe would be the wrong way to discourage abortions (except the ones that are necessary of course--rape, incest, health of the mother). If it were banned, we'd end up like El Salvador, where women who have back-alley abortions are promptly arrested and placed in prison. This sort of action simply exacerbates the problem. I agree. I would never have an abortion, but respect other's right to choose.
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Post by jaydubs on Apr 9, 2009 22:40:06 GMT -5
I guess I should have clarified. I don't think we should outlaw it entirely (I think it's Nicaragua that did that). Health reasons, of course, and rape legitimize abortion. I also see no problem with the morning after pill. But after the first trimester, I DO think that only health reasons can justify abortion. Because honestly, who's to say when sentience begins? Babies cannot speak, yet we all assume that they are fully human. I think that just the risk of ending a life should give anyone pause. And as for the rarity, I think that many non-theists "zig" because so many theists "zag." The tongues-speaking crowd have done the pro-life movement more harm than Gloria Steinem and Peter Singer could ever hope to do.
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Post by szaleniec on Apr 9, 2009 22:45:42 GMT -5
Rare, yes. You people do exist. But I find - from my point of view - that it's the metaphysical types better equipped to make the leap that the life of something that isn't really conscious is above the mother's decisions. Consciousness is the key to my own views on the subject. I agree with the original poster on the intrinsic value of human life, but believe that it's a function of our consciousness and self-awareness. That's what makes us more than simply an array of biochemical processes, more than the sum of our parts. We can think of it as an emergent system in scientific terms, or as a soul in spiritual terms. It would take a lot to convince me that a fetus, at least at the early stages of development when most abortions (and just about all that are done for non-medical reasons) take place, has this. On a moral level, I don't believe it's my place to dictate what people should do when in a situation in which I am by virtue of basic biology never going to find myself. EDIT as you posted whilst I was typing - there is of course the question of when the fetus gains sapience. I don't believe it to be an off-on switch so much as a gradual process, so any line that's drawn is necessarily arbitrary. In practice most abortions that are done for non-medical reasons are done early in the pregnancy simply because this carries less risk to the woman - late-term abortions tend to be carried out as a last resort when doctors believe that to proceed with the birth would be for whatever reason fatal or cause permanent damage. They would fall under your exemption for medical purposes.
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Post by Mira on Apr 9, 2009 22:46:47 GMT -5
I guess I fit right in with jaydubs. I think that abortions should be used only during the first trimester. unless health complications arise.
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Post by antichrist on Apr 9, 2009 23:28:54 GMT -5
I don't think your as alone as you feel. In Canada you need special permission to get an abortion past the 12 week period because you have to be booked into the hospital (as opposed to an office visit). And are only allowed after the 22nd week as a medical emergency. I'm trying to find the article, but it's something like 80-90 percent of abortions are done within the first trimester.
I would like to see abortions go down, but the only way we can do that is to do a lot of contraception education and make it easy to get. In smaller areas, pharmacists or cashiers will call parents if a teenager is buying condoms or getting pills. Unfortunately most anti-abortionists are also anti-contraception. They want babies, or to punish the little whores for having sex before marriage.
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Post by doomie 22 on Apr 9, 2009 23:39:34 GMT -5
I don't think anyone really likes abortion. If I thought every unwanted baby was going to get adopted I would be pro-life. Unfortunately, I know many unwanted babies wont get adopted because many of them are not healthy and, more importantly, many of them are not white.
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Post by ironbite on Apr 10, 2009 0:10:23 GMT -5
I don't think anyone really likes abortion. If I thought every unwanted baby was going to get adopted I would be pro-life. Unfortunately, I know many unwanted babies wont get adopted because many of them are not healthy and, more importantly, many of them are not white. Quoted for the motherfucking truth. I'm not pro-choice because I hate babies. I'm pro-choice due to the fact that we're living on an over-crowded planet with very limited living space left. I'm pro-choice because I believe in free will and no one should be able to tell anyone what to do with their body. I'm also pro-choice because I don't believe in life starting at conception. Ironbite-...I've lost my train of thought.
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Post by Thejebusfire on Apr 10, 2009 0:55:13 GMT -5
Well, I consider myself pro-choice and anti-abortion. I feel that banning it outright and overturning Roe would be the wrong way to discourage abortions (except the ones that are necessary of course--rape, incest, health of the mother). If it were banned, we'd end up like El Salvador, where women who have back-alley abortions are promptly arrested and placed in prison. This sort of action simply exacerbates the problem. Exactly.
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Post by fundierefugee on Apr 10, 2009 1:03:22 GMT -5
Okay, let me introduce myself. I was raised non-religious, and have remained that way through four years of Catholic high school and the odd CCD class. I shift from deist to atheist to agnostic depending on my mood--frankly, I haven't bothered myself to think enough about the whole "God" question to make up my mind, so call me an "apatheist." I have no time whatsoever for religious moralizing. There is nothing more insane, IMO, than taking sexual advice from a lifelong virgin/pederast in a collar. I see abstinence-only education for the failure that it is. I think that women are just as qualified as men to be priests (or presidents, or CEOs or Navy Seals, or moose-shooting hockey moms if that tickles their fancy). Stem cell research can save lives, and should be allowed. And I need no invisible judge to tell me that human life has intrinsic value, and is something that all of us should enjoy fully--whether we are born or unborn. I do not think women are inferior. I am not a religious whacko. I oppose all acts of violence or intimidation committed by pro-lifers. I just happen to think that nobody should be denied the chance to experience life. I'm in a similar position, except that I am religious. I'm a Democrat and a "liberal", with the glaring exception that I'm pro-life. I found an interesting website some time back and I don't always like what I read on there because sometimes they want to back certain Republicans but I think the Democratic Party needs to open up its umbrella a bit more for those of us who are pro-life Democrats. (And I don't even know if you're "Democrat" or not, but your positions sound more Democratic than Republican, but I don't want to presume.) www.democratsforlife.org/
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Post by wmdkitty on Apr 10, 2009 1:16:46 GMT -5
I don't think anyone really likes abortion. If I thought every unwanted baby was going to get adopted I would be pro-life. Unfortunately, I know many unwanted babies wont get adopted because many of them are not healthy and, more importantly, many of them are not white. A-fucking-MEN! /Adopted
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