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Post by Vene on Oct 16, 2010 18:44:55 GMT -5
This "America is the worst country on the planet" crap is just as bad as the "We're number 1, these colours don't run!" stuff. On the whole, the 'states is one of the better places to live in the world, even if you're poor. I work with Karen refugees, our issues really are trivial compared to what they went through.
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Post by Paradox on Oct 16, 2010 18:49:50 GMT -5
I'll admit, I was exaggerating. It's a literary device or something. But it is unquestionably true that many Americans who claim to be Christians not only act against the interest of the poor, but even deny that we should help the poor. I have known many so called Christians who hold the poor in outright contempt. In the richest country in the world we have people sleeping on the streets. That's a pretty big fucking problem, and if the God of the Bible exists He is going to be pretty pissed off at him.
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Post by Art Vandelay on Oct 16, 2010 19:14:03 GMT -5
I'll admit, I was exaggerating. It's a literary device or something. But it is unquestionably true that many Americans who claim to be Christians not only act against the interest of the poor, but even deny that we should help the poor. I have known many so called Christians who hold the poor in outright contempt. In the richest country in the world we have people sleeping on the streets. That's a pretty big fucking problem, and if the God of the Bible exists He is going to be pretty pissed off at him. I've never seen anything to suggest that Christianity univerally supports helping the poor. The bible contradicts itself thousands of times over and there are verses that support any ideology. Whether or not helping the poor is a prerequisite of being a Christian largely depends on what specific denomination you're talking about. Yeah, it's kind of a pet peeve of mine when people claim altruism is a universal feature of Christianity.
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Post by SCarpelan on Oct 20, 2010 13:53:27 GMT -5
I am constantly amused by the typical American notion that the God somehow cares about the man-made abstract ideas such as nation states and judges not only individuals but also nations.
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necrobitsch
New Member
We're All Living In Amerika
Posts: 15
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Post by necrobitsch on Nov 11, 2010 6:40:48 GMT -5
Bah. The UK is way more atheist/socialist/damned than the US and we're pretty much #1 in terms of the most generous donors towards charity.
Compassionate atheism... try wrap your little jesus-fried brains around THAT!
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Post by Art Vandelay on Nov 11, 2010 6:58:06 GMT -5
Bah. The UK is way more atheist/socialist/damned than the US and we're pretty much #1 in terms of the most generous donors towards charity. Compassionate atheism... try wrap your little jesus-fried brains around THAT! The UK also has an official religion which is taxpayer-funded IIRC, so saying it's less religious than the US may be a bit of a stretch.
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necrobitsch
New Member
We're All Living In Amerika
Posts: 15
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Post by necrobitsch on Nov 11, 2010 7:56:28 GMT -5
Funded, yes. But if you look at church attendance and the number of people who actually feel affiliated with the official 'state' religion, it's on a persistant decline. I find that extremely comforting. ;D And here's a few stats: www.whychurch.org.uk/trends.php
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Post by Iosa the Invincible on Nov 11, 2010 9:12:36 GMT -5
Bah. The UK is way more atheist/socialist/damned than the US and we're pretty much #1 in terms of the most generous donors towards charity. Compassionate atheism... try wrap your little jesus-fried brains around THAT! Actually, going through the main page archives, I did find a RR member trying to wrap their brain around it. Their excuse was that Christians are more susceptible to temptation since they're "righteous," therefore Satan works harder on them. Atheists are already damned, so Satan leaves them alone. So it's basically saying that Christians being bad people are a sign that they're better people and are still going to Heaven, and good atheists are still inferior morally and will go to Hell.
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necrobitsch
New Member
We're All Living In Amerika
Posts: 15
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Post by necrobitsch on Nov 11, 2010 9:18:12 GMT -5
Bah. The UK is way more atheist/socialist/damned than the US and we're pretty much #1 in terms of the most generous donors towards charity. Compassionate atheism... try wrap your little jesus-fried brains around THAT! Actually, going through the main page archives, I did find a RR member trying to wrap their brain around it. Their excuse was that Christians are more susceptible to temptation since they're "righteous," therefore Satan works harder on them. Atheists are already damned, so Satan leaves them alone. So it's basically saying that Christians being bad people are a sign that they're better people and are still going to Heaven, and good atheists are still inferior morally and will go to Hell. Yes, well, I suppose hell is the price I pay for trying to live a moral life without any afterlife bribery being involved to keep to a moral path. Fortunately most of the music I listen to is also consigned to hell, along with my friends, and according to one bitch I had at Bible Club that I was forced to attend as a child, beer drinkers. YAY!
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Post by gadfly on Nov 11, 2010 14:55:18 GMT -5
I'll admit, I was exaggerating. It's a literary device or something. But it is unquestionably true that many Americans who claim to be Christians not only act against the interest of the poor, but even deny that we should help the poor. I have known many so called Christians who hold the poor in outright contempt. In the richest country in the world we have people sleeping on the streets. That's a pretty big fucking problem, and if the God of the Bible exists He is going to be pretty pissed off at him. I've never seen anything to suggest that Christianity univerally supports helping the poor. The bible contradicts itself thousands of times over and there are verses that support any ideology. Whether or not helping the poor is a prerequisite of being a Christian largely depends on what specific denomination you're talking about. Yeah, it's kind of a pet peeve of mine when people claim altruism is a universal feature of Christianity. I respectfully disagree. Repeatedly in the Old Testament there are admonitions from the prophets to the wealthy Israelites to stop oppressing their poorer neighbors -- the beggars, widows, orphans, and immigrant non-Israelite people in their midst. It was even mandated in the Law that you could not harvest your entire field; that some of it around the corners had to be left so that the poor people who couldn't afford their own wheat could come and glean what was left and get a day's meal from it. Yeah. Free wheat, man. The New Testament continues this theme, though perhaps not quite as strongly (probably because it was assumed that many Christians of that day would actually know something of the Old Testament), but there are repeated, repeated instructions to not let one's testimony of faith serve as the only sign that one is a Christian. In other words, help those who need help, and help those who have less than you. I've found Slactivist's articles on social justice as it pertains to Christian living and witnessing to be an excellent resource for thinking about this issue.
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Phys
Full Member
Posts: 137
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Post by Phys on Nov 11, 2010 17:26:30 GMT -5
Actually, going through the main page archives, I did find a RR member trying to wrap their brain around it. Their excuse was that Christians are more susceptible to temptation since they're "righteous," therefore Satan works harder on them. Atheists are already damned, so Satan leaves them alone. So it's basically saying that Christians being bad people are a sign that they're better people and are still going to Heaven, and good atheists are still inferior morally and will go to Hell. YOu know, that does actually make sense, if you assume the existence of heaven, hell, Satan and so on. If being an atheist gets you sent to hell, satan doesn't need to bother to do anything apart from stop you becoming a believer (in the right religion), whereas he needs to actually corrupt believers. Of course, this also shows that Satan thinks that a believer in any of the denominations with a lot of sinners must be otherwise able to go to heaven. The New Testament continues this theme, though perhaps not quite as strongly (probably because it was assumed that many Christians of that day would actually know something of the Old Testament), but there are repeated, repeated instructions to not let one's testimony of faith serve as the only sign that one is a Christian. This is why the Catholic church insists on works as well as faith, and which makes the claims (by certain fundies) that the RCC is evil because they require good works into a complete nonsense. Since there are plenty of legitimate reasons to criticise the RCC, using stupid arguments like that just harms their overall point.
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Post by Art Vandelay on Nov 11, 2010 22:41:26 GMT -5
I've never seen anything to suggest that Christianity univerally supports helping the poor. The bible contradicts itself thousands of times over and there are verses that support any ideology. Whether or not helping the poor is a prerequisite of being a Christian largely depends on what specific denomination you're talking about. Yeah, it's kind of a pet peeve of mine when people claim altruism is a universal feature of Christianity. I respectfully disagree. Repeatedly in the Old Testament there are admonitions from the prophets to the wealthy Israelites to stop oppressing their poorer neighbors -- the beggars, widows, orphans, and immigrant non-Israelite people in their midst. It was even mandated in the Law that you could not harvest your entire field; that some of it around the corners had to be left so that the poor people who couldn't afford their own wheat could come and glean what was left and get a day's meal from it. Yeah. Free wheat, man. The New Testament continues this theme, though perhaps not quite as strongly (probably because it was assumed that many Christians of that day would actually know something of the Old Testament), but there are repeated, repeated instructions to not let one's testimony of faith serve as the only sign that one is a Christian. In other words, help those who need help, and help those who have less than you. Yeah, there are very pro-generosity sections of the bible, sure. However, there are also plenty of sections that say the exact opposite (this being the bible and all). Whether you're an altruistic Christian or not purely depends on what verses you pick and choose.
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Post by MaybeNever on Nov 12, 2010 5:11:56 GMT -5
Whether you're an altruistic Christian or not purely depends on what verses you pick and choose. Maybe a bit of a nitpick, but I'd actually reverse the order there. What verses you pick and choose depends on whether or not you're an altruistic Christian.
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Post by Art Vandelay on Nov 12, 2010 5:14:50 GMT -5
True that.
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Post by big_electron on Jul 16, 2011 15:08:51 GMT -5
Paradox, I love you!
Run away with me to Vermont, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, New York, Illinois, or Iowa.
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