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Post by Dragon Zachski on Oct 28, 2010 15:02:08 GMT -5
This is something that bothers me about a lot of fantasy games and stories, actually.
Here you have the nigh-godly wizard Erasmerlin, able to call forth meteors from the heavens... but regardless of this ability, Knight-Thug Joe the Protagonist not only manages to outperform him with nothing more than Heroic Sword #354, but manages to look freaking AWESOME while doing it, while Erasmerlin basically just stands there holding his hands up while said meteor comes down.
See also Devil May Cry. Dante never once uses magic (though his demon form may count), but instead he uses a bunch of swords and guns. Technically, I guess the demon gun (name forget mode activate) from the first game and Artemis from the third game are sorta demon-magical, but it's not really MAGIC, if you get my confusing drift.
So, after lamenting this, I suddenly realized that I don't really know how a mage could be as bad-ass as Dante without taking a level in Fighter. I mean, sure, there's Gandalf for a Bad Ass Wizard, but... He Took A Level In Fighter to be a bad-ass.
It seems like the only time a mage ever gets close to being a bad ass is when they're the Evil Necromancer sort of character, and a Good Necromancer just doesn't quite match the level of bad-assness. (Exception: Diablo II Necromancer, though that's more due to his personality rather than his actual abilities, so it barely counts.)
So... for you creative folk out there... how would you make a mage that's as bad-ass as Dante from Devil May Cry?
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Post by Napoleon the Clown on Oct 28, 2010 17:10:49 GMT -5
Well, D&D mage would be a Cleric (fairly badass in the physical fighting sense), as well as Druid. Duskblades (3.5 edition PHB II) is a caster with max base-attack bonus. Not as potent a mage as a Wizard, but still able to use some rather nasty spells. Paladins.
The WoD mage games (old and new) you can make a rather badass mage....
There are a number of fantasy books where the mage-types also have the option of training themselves to be physical badasses as well.
Of course, once a 3.5 Wizard gets glitterdust he can just pop that into the Fighter's face and blind him. Save or suck spells get progressively nastier as he levels. Shapechange. Oh, you're a scary fighter, I'm scared. Shapechange. Now lets see how well you do against a big fucking dragon. Clerics also have this option.
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Post by Art Vandelay on Oct 28, 2010 17:13:59 GMT -5
Telekinesis and pyrokinesis, the only two things you need to know.
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Post by Sigmaleph on Oct 28, 2010 18:11:00 GMT -5
Never played Devil May Cry, so I don't know to what standards you're measuring here.
Still, I dunno, I never saw mages as lacking in badass. See, for example, Orphen (though admittedly it's been a while since I ever watched that so I may be misremembering).
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Post by Vene on Oct 28, 2010 20:05:52 GMT -5
This is what came to mind.
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Post by Tiberius on Oct 28, 2010 22:53:47 GMT -5
The first thing I think of when I think of a badass mage is a sanctioned psyker from 40k... Although many are just shriveled husks, Primaris Psykers (Or Navigators, some Inquisitors, etc.) manage to be pretty badass without any close combat skill. Generally by being rather condescending toward non psychics, a tad haughty and powers ranging from what amounts to force lightning to pyrokinesis to Scanner style head-sploding, or just a Psycho Mantis style ability to predict an enemy... So yeah! Make your mage condescending, haughty, a bit of a douchebag... but give him something of a nice side underneath! Also, faster powers. No waiting hours to use some sort of attack spell.
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Post by Dragon Zachski on Oct 29, 2010 1:21:34 GMT -5
There are a number of fantasy books where the mage-types also have the option of training themselves to be physical badasses as well. Maybe you misunderstood me. Taking A Level In Fighter (that is, resorting to physical attacks) is what I'm wanting to AVOID. That's "giving in" to the idea that fighters are automatically better and cooler than mages. Telekinesis and pyrokinesis, the only two things you need to know. This is technically true, but visually, it's not as bad-ass as some of Dante's stunts. Never played Devil May Cry, so I don't know to what standards you're measuring here. Still, I dunno, I never saw mages as lacking in badass. See, for example, Orphen (though admittedly it's been a while since I ever watched that so I may be misremembering). I'll have to check that anime out. As far as Devil May Cry goes... well, give someone a big fucking sword, two modified pistols (plus a host of other guns, generally including some sort of rocket launcher) that, due to Dante's devil powers, have infinite ammo. And then, give this guy crazy stunts that put Neo of Matrix to shame, such as throwing his sword while running down the side of a building, then shooting his gun at the sword so that it strikes the handle and makes it go even faster. And this is AFTER he proceeded to play mid-air Pool by shooting the cue ball with a pistol. He kicks a chair and makes it upright, slams his leg on the desk and causes the phone to land in his hand, and he fixes a jukebox by fucking PUNCHING IT. And this is an everyday thing for him. That is what Dante is, and I have yet to see some sort of mage that can reach his level of bad-assery. This is what came to mind. Ah, Kuja, you are so awesome. The problem is... look at what Kuja himself is doing. Folding his arms and doing not much while his spears of magically-symbolic death penetrate the land. While this is cool in its own right, it's still not bad-ass because he's doing what I described the Wizard doing earlier... "staying relatively motionless while summoning the big ball/spears of death that the sword wielding hero will still outperform with nothing more than the attack command, and looking cooler while doing so." Granted, Ultima in that game is technically beyond the damage limit because it automatically ends the battle, but... eh. The first thing I think of when I think of a badass mage is a sanctioned psyker from 40k... Although many are just shriveled husks, Primaris Psykers (Or Navigators, some Inquisitors, etc.) manage to be pretty badass without any close combat skill. Generally by being rather condescending toward non psychics, a tad haughty and powers ranging from what amounts to force lightning to pyrokinesis to Scanner style head-sploding, or just a Psycho Mantis style ability to predict an enemy... So yeah! Make your mage condescending, haughty, a bit of a douchebag... but give him something of a nice side underneath! Also, faster powers. No waiting hours to use some sort of attack spell. I suppose this is closer... but not quite it. You know, I remember one player I talked to in Phantasy Star Online (I was playing a Force) explaining that the reason you don't see many forces on is that many guys consider mage to be a "girl's" job. I dunno if this true, though, as it's just one guy in one game that's actually rather obscure and doesn't even have working official servers anymore. Anyways, tl;dr: Good ideas either way, but the problem is that they don't necessarily surpass the fighters. Sometimes, even when the mages are superior to the fighters,the fighters are still cooler/more bad-ass due to style, which seems to be absent among mages in fantasy games. EDIT: I suppose the best way to summarize the issue is that the mages generally have no style, whereas the fighters have it in bundles.
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Post by Vypernight on Oct 29, 2010 4:09:25 GMT -5
Martial Arts. It requires discipline (which the mage is already used to) but does not require weapons or armor. This makes it right up the mage's alley.
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Post by DarkfireTaimatsu on Oct 29, 2010 5:25:33 GMT -5
Martial Arts. It requires discipline (which the mage is already used to) but does not require weapons or armor. This makes it right up the mage's alley. This is, in fact, used to great extent in the manga Negima!.
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Post by Haseen on Oct 29, 2010 6:44:26 GMT -5
Maybe something like the wicked weaves from Bayonetta. The mage could do a punch/kick, where a phantom fist/foot comes out that mimics the attack on an enormous scale. The mage wouldn't have to be a powerful fighter, himself. It's the giant fucking fist or boot that materialized from nowhere that's doing the actual attack. You can also add in powerful energy blasts like in DBZ, or the ability to fire an enormous number of shots, like spell cards in Touhou.
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Post by m52nickerson on Oct 29, 2010 6:49:41 GMT -5
It seems like the only time a mage ever gets close to being a bad ass is when they're the Evil Necromancer sort of character, and a Good Necromancer just doesn't quite match the level of bad-assness. (Exception: Diablo II Necromancer, though that's more due to his personality rather than his actual abilities, so it barely counts.) Personality is a big part of it. That an air of mistery. A fighter can seem pretty badass when he rushes head long into a large groups of Orcs and quickly kills the first few with only a few swipes of his sword. Now when that fighter looks up and finds the remaining Orcs all choking to death while smokes rolls out of their eyes and his mage freind is still seem to just be reading his spell book, that is badass.
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Post by Bluefinger on Oct 29, 2010 9:58:39 GMT -5
I think mages can be very bad-ass. At least, the games in which I have played a mage type character have always seemed bad-ass.
In Oblivion, I had a bad-ass mage. Okay, he had some swordfighting skills. But, he wore no armour. No need for it, since he could cast himself shield spells to give him all the armour he needed. And then, adding a touch of conjuration skills, summoned a handy Skeleton Warrior/Champion/etc or Wraith to kick some serious ass. But, when I didn't feel like slashing shit to bits, I could melt people from a distance with all the lightning/fire spells that I want. If anything, the swordfighting was more done to steal people's souls with a soul reaping sword. And yes, in Oblivion, you CAN steal people's souls, not just creatures. You just need to make black soul gems, and if you do the Mage's Guild quests, you get to find out how anyway. Damn useful.
As for Arcanum: Of Magick And Steamworks Obscura, I eventually got a spell that disintegrated people atom-by-atom until there was nothing left. Not even loot. Or a spell which forcibly ripped people's souls from their body and killed them (unless they do a high constitution/willpower save). I could even get a spell to slow down time for everyone else in the world except me and my party.
However, all that is next is for a game to offer a system where you could literally craft up your own spells. Like, there isn't really a set number of spells to learn, just a set number of different types and effects, and mixing these up in various set-ups and complexities would yield different spells of differing power. So, to progress as a proper mage, you must write your own 'spell-book'. Your identity is effectively tied down to the spells you've created. It would be so awesome...
And I've gone off on a tangent... great... but yeah, mages can still be awesome and bad-ass.
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Post by shadowpanther on Oct 29, 2010 10:05:10 GMT -5
I think mages can be very bad-ass. At least, the games in which I have played a mage type character have always seemed bad-ass. In Oblivion, I had a bad-ass mage. Okay, he had some swordfighting skills. But, he wore no armour. No need for it, since he could cast himself shield spells to give him all the armour he needed. And then, adding a touch of conjuration skills, summoned a handy Skeleton Warrior/Champion/etc or Wraith to kick some serious ass. But, when I didn't feel like slashing shit to bits, I could melt people from a distance with all the lightning/fire spells that I want. If anything, the swordfighting was more done to steal people's souls with a soul reaping sword. And yes, in Oblivion, you CAN steal people's souls, not just creatures. You just need to make black soul gems, and if you do the Mage's Guild quests, you get to find out how anyway. Damn useful. Especially if you couple that with the brilliant Midas Magic mod so you can start slinging around comets and nukes and pillars of fire. Then use the souls to enchant your robes so as much damage as possible is reflected back the attacker. And then...*scampers off to play some more Oblivion*
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Post by Sigmaleph on Oct 29, 2010 12:12:54 GMT -5
I'll have to check that anime out. As far as Devil May Cry goes... well, give someone a big fucking sword, two modified pistols (plus a host of other guns, generally including some sort of rocket launcher) that, due to Dante's devil powers, have infinite ammo. And then, give this guy crazy stunts that put Neo of Matrix to shame, such as throwing his sword while running down the side of a building, then shooting his gun at the sword so that it strikes the handle and makes it go even faster. And this is AFTER he proceeded to play mid-air Pool by shooting the cue ball with a pistol. He kicks a chair and makes it upright, slams his leg on the desk and causes the phone to land in his hand, and he fixes a jukebox by fucking PUNCHING IT. And this is an everyday thing for him. That is what Dante is, and I have yet to see some sort of mage that can reach his level of bad-assery. Ah, Kuja, you are so awesome. The problem is... look at what Kuja himself is doing. Folding his arms and doing not much while his spears of magically-symbolic death penetrate the land. While this is cool in its own right, it's still not bad-ass because he's doing what I described the Wizard doing earlier... "staying relatively motionless while summoning the big ball/spears of death that the sword wielding hero will still outperform with nothing more than the attack command, and looking cooler while doing so." Granted, Ultima in that game is technically beyond the damage limit because it automatically ends the battle, but... eh. I think the problem is you strongly associate badassery with physical motion. Which of course makes sense, we grow up in a world where the powerful warriors of old were all physical fighters. Even now when the most destructive thing we can do is push the right button, there is the trope that "real" warriors go out, get messy, face their opponents one-on-one (or one-on-fuckloads), stab and slice and shoot, in person. Exaggerated physical motions is what our species associated for the longest time with combat, so the quickest way to make someone look badass is give them physical prowess. Vicious circle, physical looks badass so future depictions of badass are physical so we strongly associate physical with badass so anyone who wants a character to look badass gives them exaggerated physical motions etc. Best shot would be a mage that doesn't actually punch or kick or shoot, casts from afar, but uses some manner of physical motion to manipulate or invoke the magic. Preferably highly destructive magic. Imagine someone just pulling off elaborate, fast, powerful-looking martial-arts moves, without touching anyone, just manipulating the pretty lights that blast armies apart at the distance. That gives you the visual associations without the actual level in fighter, since the mage isn't even near touching anything. Or, if that doesn't work, go for style. Mage just walks around, unperturbed by anything, the rabble of fighters closes in on him/her, wave of the hand, blast, explosion of fighter guts. Or whatever works for you.
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Post by Dragon Zachski on Oct 29, 2010 13:08:15 GMT -5
...Great. Now I'm imagining Leonardo DiCaprio strolling down the middle of the road as his meme has made him famous for while warriors explode when they get in 5 feet of him.
Well, I think this thread has served its purpose XD Thanks everyone.
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