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Post by Napoleon the Clown on Oct 29, 2010 14:21:06 GMT -5
Um, the Asha'man in the WoT series aren't "multi-classsing" or anything like it. Their training is to make them ungodly good channelers and then give them melee skills as back-up.
Duskblades, as I mentioned, are physical badasses as well. In fact, they're a mage that's fighting is most powerful when they're in melee channeling their spells into attacks.
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Post by John E on Oct 29, 2010 14:43:42 GMT -5
Have a look at the Galdalf/Saruman fight in Fellowship of the Ring. It's a physical fight... but not. Their movements are like a physical smackdown, but all the hits are magical. Something Like that could make for a pretty bad ass wizard, wherein the wizard can fight, using martial movements, without ever having to touch anyone.
Also, I've currently got 3 tabs open to TV Tropes, having looked up Took A Level In Fighter. Thanks.
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Post by impatiens on Oct 29, 2010 15:08:23 GMT -5
Just to give more badass mage examples, here's Canas from Fire Emblem 7 (well, technically a druid): And Ewan from FE8: And the first-generation mages from FE4: As for Arcanum: Of Magick And Steamworks Obscura, I eventually got a spell that disintegrated people atom-by-atom until there was nothing left. Not even loot. Or a spell which forcibly ripped people's souls from their body and killed them (unless they do a high constitution/willpower save). I could even get a spell to slow down time for everyone else in the world except me and my party. Magic is pretty game-breaking in Arcanum. I remember killing Gilbert Bates with my evil mage character, along with the various guards, and then conjuring his spirit in order to get the quest information. For that matter, dark magic is FE7 is game-breaking, too. Canas is good not because of his stats (they're average), but because he is the only person on your team, other than a character you get in the very last chapter, who can cast a spell that ignores magic resistance, and it has the highest critical ratio in the game. It's only a C-level tome, too, and it has the best accuracy of any dark magic tome in FE7.
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Post by Napoleon the Clown on Oct 29, 2010 15:14:53 GMT -5
What about Selphie from FF VIII? Piss her off bad enough and she'll wish you to the cornfield. Quistis can summon the goddamn Grim Reaper as a limit break.
Just because the mage isn't fancy about it doesn't mean that they're not badass. Anyone who can survive getting stabbed repeatedly is a badass. Many mages simply decide to avoid wasting energy with needless motions.
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Post by RavynousHunter on Oct 29, 2010 15:17:18 GMT -5
Telekinesis and pyrokinesis, the only two things you need to know. Technically, that's psionics, not magic. Warlocks from D+D 3.5 are pretty badass. That Eldritch Blast with a high enough Dex score will wreck your shit fast considering its basically a moddable Jesus Beam. That said, I have one rule in pretty much all stories: Creativity + Knowledge = Power. You can know a lot of shit, but you'll fail spectacularly against a sufficiently crafty hero. Conversely, even if you're the magical equivalent (in creativity) of Da Vinci, you won't be able to do anything without knowing what the hell you're doing. There are many ways to get around to doing that, be it Genre Savviness, Magnificent Bastardry, or any other Trope that applies both a keen intellect and a razor-sharp cunning. Course, you should always avoid making them SO knowledgeable and SO creative that they become near-Suelike.
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Post by Bluefinger on Oct 29, 2010 15:52:30 GMT -5
As for Arcanum: Of Magick And Steamworks Obscura, I eventually got a spell that disintegrated people atom-by-atom until there was nothing left. Not even loot. Or a spell which forcibly ripped people's souls from their body and killed them (unless they do a high constitution/willpower save). I could even get a spell to slow down time for everyone else in the world except me and my party. Magic is pretty game-breaking in Arcanum. I remember killing Gilbert Bates with my evil mage character, along with the various guards, and then conjuring his spirit in order to get the quest information. Yeah, I once accidentally disintegrated the guy with the Bangellian Scourge whilst doing the Skeleton Pete quest thing. When I realised I nuked the essential item, I was all "FFFFFUUUUUUU-" and booted up the previous save (which thankfully, wasn't that much behind). After that, I used that spell a LOT more sparingly.
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Post by RavynousHunter on Oct 29, 2010 16:15:47 GMT -5
Use Disintegrate sparingly? BULLSHIT. That's my sorc's 3rd favorite spell after Fireball and Meteor Swarm.
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Post by Napoleon the Clown on Oct 29, 2010 18:27:38 GMT -5
Really effing MEAN spell from 3.5 (and earlier, I would imagine...): Energy Drain. Because if you can spam Energy Drain enough times the target will roll over and die unless they've taken the time and effort to gain immunity to it. At which point you spam something else nasty.
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Post by impatiens on Oct 29, 2010 18:57:49 GMT -5
Fireball and Meteor Swarm? Harm is where it's at. It's awfully powerful for a spell a level one character can learn right off the bat. Stronger than a lot of higher level spells.
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Post by Dragon Zachski on Oct 29, 2010 19:02:21 GMT -5
Um, the Asha'man in the WoT series aren't "multi-classsing" or anything like it. Their training is to make them ungodly good channelers and then give them melee skills as back-up. Duskblades, as I mentioned, are physical badasses as well. In fact, they're a mage that's fighting is most powerful when they're in melee channeling their spells into attacks. I didn't mean "take a level of fighter" literally.
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Post by John E on Oct 29, 2010 22:49:17 GMT -5
If you're writing a story, you could subvert the Fighters are More Badass than Mages trope by having a badass fighter confront a mage and the mage casually cast an energy draining spell on the fighter, who promptly collapses under the weight of his armor and becomes a pathetic weakling at the mage's mercy.
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Post by Dragon Zachski on Oct 30, 2010 1:58:48 GMT -5
On a side note, I find that by watching Dissidia Final Fantasy, that really, there is a way for a mage to be bad-ass without relying on physical attacks.
Simply put, change the nature of spells. Spells replace weapons. Instead of cutting through an enemy with a Big Fucking Sword, summon and quickly slam a chunk of ice into them, freeze them solid, shock the frozen ice thing, make it explode, then swing around orbs of fire to tear through enemies. Something like that.
So, basically, along the lines of what some of you were saying.
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Post by Yla on Oct 30, 2010 16:32:00 GMT -5
I think part of the problem is that we don't have context for a mage's badassery. Most of us aren't fighting on a regular basis, but we do physical actions and thus have an idea on how much some fictional fighter's deeds surpass the average. We don't have that for magic. All we know is that every mage waves his arms, mumbles some cryptic words (there are variations on this, of course) and stuff blows up, but we don't know how much effort goes into this. Most books only vaguely allude on 'mystic energy flows' being shaped, and motion pictures are unable to do even that. 'Show, don't tell', but with just show, it's usually lacking context to make for true badassery. And we are past the point where supernatural skills in general evoke awe in us; fiction is saturated with them.
Personally, the less flashy the magic, the more am I likely to find a mage badass. I'm a stickler for efficiency.
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Post by Vene on Oct 31, 2010 13:30:25 GMT -5
Telekinesis and pyrokinesis, the only two things you need to know. Technically, that's psionics, not magic. Is there really a functional difference? Sure, some games make psions and mages two different things, but both are supernatural abilities that often rely on pure energy. Like, with pyrokinesis, is using psychic energy to throw flames from your fingertips any different than the 1st level DnD spell burning hands? On a side note, I find that by watching Dissidia Final Fantasy, that really, there is a way for a mage to be bad-ass without relying on physical attacks. Simply put, change the nature of spells. Spells replace weapons. Instead of cutting through an enemy with a Big Fucking Sword, summon and quickly slam a chunk of ice into them, freeze them solid, shock the frozen ice thing, make it explode, then swing around orbs of fire to tear through enemies. Something like that. So, basically, along the lines of what some of you were saying. I've been playing DDO with a wizard. When I cast cold ray (a first level spell), my wiz thrusts his hand forward, a bolt of ice launches from it, and if it kills the target they turn to ice and shatter. No fighter swinging a sword around can do that. And, yeah, what you're wanting is flashy special effects.
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Post by Dragon Zachski on Oct 31, 2010 16:34:06 GMT -5
On a side note, I find that by watching Dissidia Final Fantasy, that really, there is a way for a mage to be bad-ass without relying on physical attacks. Simply put, change the nature of spells. Spells replace weapons. Instead of cutting through an enemy with a Big Fucking Sword, summon and quickly slam a chunk of ice into them, freeze them solid, shock the frozen ice thing, make it explode, then swing around orbs of fire to tear through enemies. Something like that. So, basically, along the lines of what some of you were saying. I've been playing DDO with a wizard. When I cast cold ray (a first level spell), my wiz thrusts his hand forward, a bolt of ice launches from it, and if it kills the target they turn to ice and shatter. No fighter swinging a sword around can do that. And, yeah, what you're wanting is flashy special effects. ...Umm, no. I see nothing in my post that indicated it was special effects. But rather that it was how spells are used. Watch Dissidia gameplay. Terra swings blocks of ice around her in lieu of a physical attack. Kuja has those spell balls that he manipulates into hitting enemies as if he was conducting an orchestra.
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