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Post by Dragon Zachski on Dec 13, 2010 13:55:56 GMT -5
From what I understand, they're too Red Mage-y, in terms of what Zachski was going for. I wouldn't go that far, especially since Red Mages in recent trends tend to suffer from all classes' weaknesses with none of their strengths to make up for their wide range of magic and weaponry. They've become more of a joke class lately. Which sucks, because sword-mages ARE bad-ass in their own right, if only more developers weren't so afraid of making them good at anything. (Bioware, at least, isn't afraid of it, though, what with Arcane Warrior being the best physical fighter in Dragon Age despite being a Mage Class) Rather, it has moreso to do with the fact that making a mage use physical attacks (or as I like to call it, Taking a Level in Fighter) is defeating the purpose of the thread. It's basically surrendering to the principle that "Fighting is inherently more bad-ass than magic." However, using magic AS a physical attack is where it gets iffy and potentially bad-ass. Guy has no weapons or armor. Enemy army has weapons and armor. Guy proceeds to run in and lay waste to them, never physically touching them, but using magic to block, evade, blind, confusie, and of course, destroy enemy troops. Guy with magic wins. The problem is conferring this to a written format that works. Since I consider Dante of Devil May Cry to be the penultimate example of physical bad-assery, that is what I am trying to reach - a mage who is like Dante (or even Dante as a mage himself) who is equally bad-ass.
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Post by Oriet on Dec 13, 2010 14:28:39 GMT -5
I am confused as to why you're holding Dante as a quintessence of physical fighting when he has so many obviously magical effects and abilities. Dante also has many weapons that are more magic than weapon, and from the special attacks he does with them must require a bit of magical aptitude in order to use them even as a simple weapon. I mean, what are you wanting, weapons and armour that are purely force effects with no actual physical form, or what?
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Post by Dragon Zachski on Dec 13, 2010 20:36:44 GMT -5
I am confused as to why you're holding Dante as a quintessence of physical fighting when he has so many obviously magical effects and abilities. Dante also has many weapons that are more magic than weapon, and from the special attacks he does with them must require a bit of magical aptitude in order to use them even as a simple weapon. I mean, what are you wanting, weapons and armour that are purely force effects with no actual physical form, or what? Dante's magical powers consist of stopping time, creating a copy of himself, and turning into his demon form, maybe some other things I'm not aware of. While there are weapons that are magical, it's not like it's actually his magic. I know there's one gun that utilizes his devil trigger, but to call that magic would be like saying that the fighter who has a high enough Use Magical Device to read a magic scroll of Magic Missile is suddenly a "Mage". I thought I was pretty clear about what I was wanting, though. A magic user that can use magic in a bad-ass way in the same manner that Dante uses his sword/guns. Here's an example of what I mean: A way to do something like that, but with magic. As an example, here's an idea I came up with. A normal mage would cast a spell, summoning a spear of ice, and with a gesture, launch it at the enemy. A bad-ass mage would pull the rush the enemy, thrust his hand forward, and a spear of ice would appear and immediately thrust into the enemy. A normal mage would hold his hands up and call down the super Meteor of Doom that deals about as much damage as a single slash Excalibur v. 3.0 A badass mage would work that into a combo of magical attacks, summoning a smaller meteor by swinging his arm that rams into the enemy in point blank range. A normal mage would chill the area around the enemy to produce a block of ice. A badass mage would summon a block of ice and ram it into the enemy without physically touching the block of ice or the enemy itself. Stuff like that. You kinda see some of it in Dissidia, though not all of it. And I don't mean martial arts moves, either (such as throw a punch at thin air and a fist of earth punches the enemy), I mean gestures that, though generic, would be something a bad-ass mage would use. It's really hard to describe.
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Post by Admiral Lithp on Dec 13, 2010 21:48:07 GMT -5
I define red mage as "a mix of warrior & mage." Every Bender in Avatar is automatically a Red Mage because their bending is a form of martial arts.
I still say that there's no sense in overexerting yourself if you have magic, & if you're going to use weapons, you should...use weapons.
I do indeed find it more badass to create a spear & launch it at the enemy than to make a spear & stab it into the enemy.
I would also say that the latter is just "taking a level in fighter." Perhaps because I'm looking at it in FMA terms, I'd say that's just making a weapon, then attacking.
So, in the end, I say the Red Maging or Taking a Level in Fighter is actually the way to go. Magic is awesome because it's flashy & destructive. Fighters are awesome because they demonstrate skill & agility.
You're not combining them to make 1 component awesome by association, you're combining them so you can get the best of both worlds.
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Post by Vene on Dec 13, 2010 22:34:03 GMT -5
I am confused as to why you're holding Dante as a quintessence of physical fighting when he has so many obviously magical effects and abilities. Dante also has many weapons that are more magic than weapon, and from the special attacks he does with them must require a bit of magical aptitude in order to use them even as a simple weapon. I mean, what are you wanting, weapons and armour that are purely force effects with no actual physical form, or what? Dante's magical powers consist of stopping time, creating a copy of himself, and turning into his demon form, maybe some other things I'm not aware of. While there are weapons that are magical, it's not like it's actually his magic. I know there's one gun that utilizes his devil trigger, but to call that magic would be like saying that the fighter who has a high enough Use Magical Device to read a magic scroll of Magic Missile is suddenly a "Mage". I thought I was pretty clear about what I was wanting, though. A magic user that can use magic in a bad-ass way in the same manner that Dante uses his sword/guns. Here's an example of what I mean: A way to do something like that, but with magic. As an example, here's an idea I came up with. A normal mage would cast a spell, summoning a spear of ice, and with a gesture, launch it at the enemy. A bad-ass mage would pull the rush the enemy, thrust his hand forward, and a spear of ice would appear and immediately thrust into the enemy. A normal mage would hold his hands up and call down the super Meteor of Doom that deals about as much damage as a single slash Excalibur v. 3.0 A badass mage would work that into a combo of magical attacks, summoning a smaller meteor by swinging his arm that rams into the enemy in point blank range. A normal mage would chill the area around the enemy to produce a block of ice. A badass mage would summon a block of ice and ram it into the enemy without physically touching the block of ice or the enemy itself. Stuff like that. You kinda see some of it in Dissidia, though not all of it. And I don't mean martial arts moves, either (such as throw a punch at thin air and a fist of earth punches the enemy), I mean gestures that, though generic, would be something a bad-ass mage would use. It's really hard to describe. You need to look at other magic systems. Even something like d20. No fighter's sword will ever match the strength of a wizard or sorcerer casting meteor swarm.
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Post by Magnizeal on Dec 13, 2010 22:40:04 GMT -5
A normal mage would chill the area around the enemy to produce a block of ice. A badass mage would summon a block of ice and ram it into the enemy without physically touching the block of ice or the enemy itself.So...
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Post by Dragon Zachski on Dec 13, 2010 22:46:07 GMT -5
That would be type 1, a normal mage summoning a lance of ice and tossing it.
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Post by Vene on Dec 13, 2010 23:48:52 GMT -5
That would be type 1, a normal mage summoning a lance of ice and tossing it. I kind of wonder what the sense is in charging towards the pointy when you're a ranged fighter. ETA: I know! The mage should juggle ice shards and then throw them!
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Post by Magnizeal on Dec 14, 2010 0:06:54 GMT -5
That would be type 1, a normal mage summoning a lance of ice and tossing it. No. No, it isn't. She summoned the ice from no-where, and directed it towards Squall. At no point did she touch the ice or Squall. That is in every way exactly what you said you wanted. "A badass mage would summon a block of ice and ram it into the enemy without physically touching the block of ice or the enemy itself." She did not cool the area around Squall. She did not touch him. She did not touch it. She didn't even have to work hard. If that is not bad-ass, then you need your head checked. Hell, I don't even like Edea, and I'm defending her...
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Post by Napoleon the Clown on Dec 14, 2010 0:21:25 GMT -5
A badass mage is, apparently, one who runs up to his enemies so they can perforate his lungs. Then, and only then, is he allowed to call down his lightnings.
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Post by Admiral Lithp on Dec 14, 2010 1:28:21 GMT -5
Actually, the problem is that different requirements are given for "lance" & "block" of ice. It's apparently badass to launch a block of ice, but not a spear.
I don't understand that. Nor do I understand how chilling the area around an enemy can't be badass. Although I do prefer magic to come from the caster, that's just because it makes more sense, to me.
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Post by Dragon Zachski on Dec 14, 2010 4:11:25 GMT -5
That would be type 1, a normal mage summoning a lance of ice and tossing it. No. No, it isn't. She summoned the ice from no-where, and directed it towards Squall. At no point did she touch the ice or Squall. Then read closer. In the second scenario, the mage actually charges and perforates the target's lungs with basically a direct attack involving a weapon they aren't even holding. In the first scenario, they're doing exactly what Edea is doing. Standing back and gesturing and then ice shards fly out.
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Post by Napoleon the Clown on Dec 14, 2010 4:18:21 GMT -5
As I said, the mage is supposed to run in to get stabbed instead of being intelligent enough to attack at-range.
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Post by Dragon Zachski on Dec 14, 2010 4:19:42 GMT -5
As I said, the mage is supposed to run in to get stabbed instead of being intelligent enough to attack at-range. >implying that a bad-ass mage would allow himself to get stabbed. Here's a protip:
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Post by Art Vandelay on Dec 14, 2010 4:36:44 GMT -5
Personally, I'd just steal said mage's toilet paper and wait a few days. If that doesn't result in a bad ass then I don't know what will.
No, I haven't read the last few pages so if someone made that same joke back there, then bleh.
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