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Post by mice34 on Apr 17, 2009 4:40:42 GMT -5
My ethics are much, much better because I have to reason everything out & really think about why/if I think something is wrong. That's what led to me dropping Christianity in the first place; I couldn't reconcile it with reasoned morality, only authority.
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Post by Deimos on Apr 17, 2009 7:37:22 GMT -5
It hasnt changed my ethics, but then again I don't have any. Yaaaay!
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Post by DrKilljoy on Apr 17, 2009 15:21:09 GMT -5
[quote author=tiger board=rp thread=758 post=23877 What on Earth ever gave you that idea? There are countless numbers of social creatures, from other primates to wolves to bees to those heartwarming stories about dogs raising orphaned kittens. All of which happen because of natural selection driving us to form mutually beneficial relationships to increase our genes' chances of survival, not "just because".
To answer your question, I've become more secure in my moral convictions because I arrived at them on my own rather than pulling them from a 4,000 year old book, and am generally much happier and social. (In no small part because I'm actually talking to people instead of dismissing them as sinners because they weren't as pious as I was or fornicating or some such garbage.)[/quote]
Oh, hell. I wasn't looking for an argument. I'll say one thing about this:
Personally, I believe that animals just do this out of a displaced parental instinct. Even the crude, sociopathic early humans from hundreds of thousands of years ago were at or above the morality of animals, and things have vastly improved since then.
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Post by Vene on Apr 17, 2009 15:29:24 GMT -5
Sorry killjoy, but no. We are not any different than animals. The great apes have social structures just as complex as us. As do dolphins and some whales. You might be able to argue that the wolf packs and the like are due to instinct, but we are not without instinct. We are social beings. We EVOLVED as social animals, just like the examples I just gave.
Really, Homo sapiens isn't that special, if we even are special.
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Post by Tiger on Apr 17, 2009 23:55:41 GMT -5
Really, Homo sapiens isn't that special, if we even are special. Well, we're the only species that's evolved sentience, which is pretty special. But yeah, we care for each other for the same reason animals do; because it's mutually beneficial and increases our odds of both reproduction and survival.
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Post by MozMode on Apr 18, 2009 0:01:25 GMT -5
Not much. When I was in the RCC, I wasn't that into it really. I guess I didn't feel as connected to Jebus and gawd as my peers. So I kinda made up my own ethical code centering mainly around the ol' "Treat others the way you want to be treated" deal. That Golden Rule came about loooong before Jebus did. And as I shed the religious parts of myself and became an Atheist, it's just kinda stayed with me.
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Post by Yahweh on Apr 18, 2009 3:30:52 GMT -5
After losing my religion, the most significant impact on my moral thinking is that humans are not the center of the moral universe. In fact, human life has no intrinsic value at all, it only has conditional value. This had a striking affect on how I view the value of human life, including contemporary issues such as abortion, infanticide, euthanasia, suicide, war, and my obligation toward others.
More importantly, I threw away the belief that humans exist in the center of the moral universe, which I regard as a religious belief no different from stating that humans exist in the center of the physical universe. As if it were any secret to the FSTDT community, several years ago I became a vegan for several years as a direct consequence of the fact that there are no moral distinctions between animal life and the lives of mentally similar humans.
My moral principles are egalitarian with a strong utilitarian bent to them.
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Post by DrKilljoy on Apr 18, 2009 13:59:50 GMT -5
I'm still gonna have to disagree with you on this, for the reason that Tiger pointed out - sapience.
I really don't want to drag this argument out much more. I've been involved with similar arguments about humanity on other forums, and it's a can of worms that's netted me more than my share of "kill yourself" and "evil conservative!" (note that I'm left-leaning) posts.
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Post by deliciousdemon on Apr 18, 2009 14:20:45 GMT -5
Sorry killjoy, but no. We are not any different than animals. The great apes have social structures just as complex as us. Really, Homo sapiens isn't that special, if we even are special. I would disagree with this statement even if it is only technically. I would not say the great apes have social systems as complex as human beings. I would agree wholeheartedly with the idea that they have very complex social systems especially in light of how they used to be viewed. And the complexity seems to increase the more we learn about them via primatologists, ethologists, psychologists, et cetera, but I don't think any one of those scientists would argue that apes are equal to humans in terms of social complexity. That said, I am continuously 'wowed' by apes when I read papers or monographs about their behaviour. Really, Homo sapiens isn't that special, if we even are special. Well, we're the only species that's evolved sentience, which is pretty special. But yeah, we care for each other for the same reason animals do; because it's mutually beneficial and increases our odds of both reproduction and survival. And I heartily disagree with this idea. I think it has been proved as best as it can be at this point that the great apes are sentient beings, posessing self-awareness to an extremely refined degree. Chimpanzees or even baboons are incredibly Machiavellian in their social interactions--to the extent that most behavioural research suggests that they posses several degrees of social awareness. As in: Chimp A can guess what chimp B is thinking about Chimp A. I can provide several resources, least of which is M achiavellian Intelligence : Social Expertise and the Evolution of Intellect in Monkeys, Apes, and Humans edited by R. Byrne and A. Whiten.
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Post by Vene on Apr 18, 2009 14:40:58 GMT -5
I would agree wholeheartedly with the idea that they have very complex social systems especially in light of how they used to be viewed. This was the idea I was trying to convey.
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Post by Tiger on Apr 18, 2009 14:54:58 GMT -5
Well, we're the only species that's evolved sentience, which is pretty special. But yeah, we care for each other for the same reason animals do; because it's mutually beneficial and increases our odds of both reproduction and survival. And I heartily disagree with this idea. I think it has been proved as best as it can be at this point that the great apes are sentient beings, posessing self-awareness to an extremely refined degree. Chimpanzees or even baboons are incredibly Machiavellian in their social interactions--to the extent that most behavioural research suggests that they posses several degrees of social awareness. As in: Chimp A can guess what chimp B is thinking about Chimp A. I can provide several resources, least of which is M achiavellian Intelligence : Social Expertise and the Evolution of Intellect in Monkeys, Apes, and Humans edited by R. Byrne and A. Whiten. Sorry, it appears that sentience and sapience aren't synonyms like I thought they were. I meant sapience. I'm still gonna have to disagree with you on this, for the reason that Tiger pointed out - sapience. Sapience has nothing to do with morality. We're the only species that's discovered agriculture, and as a result have been able to devote resources to science and technological development that would otherwise have gone towards the acquisition of food. That doesn't translate into any sort of moral superiority. The essay by Frans de Waal that recently appeared in Scientific American demonstrates my point rather well. All the essays on that page are worth a read if you're interested in the subject, by the way. I really don't want to drag this argument out much more. I've been involved with similar arguments about humanity on other forums, and it's a can of worms that's netted me more than my share of "kill yourself" and "evil conservative!" (note that I'm left-leaning) posts. As you wish, though I certainly don't think you should kill yourself or that you're evil.
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Post by deliciousdemon on Apr 19, 2009 9:49:16 GMT -5
All the essays on that page are worth a read if you're interested in the subject, by the way. I'm well into Frans de Waal, he is one of my favourite primatologists. I've read nearly all his published material--but not this more recent paper. Thanks for the recommendation.
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Post by Jedi Knight on Apr 20, 2009 19:27:10 GMT -5
I was fairly young when I turned away from my christian faith. The next couple of years, I looked into other religions in an attempt to find one that made sense to me. I didn't, and ended up an atheist. As I said, I was young, and my ethics have been changing ever since. I would say they have evolved more than just changed, and as I am still learning, my ethics will keep evolving. Some properties are still clear to me:
I don't believe in any absolute authority, therefore there are no absolute moral laws, and I am a moral relativist. I believe our sense of morality originates in altruistic genes, and that we have expressed this through social contracts and agreements. I believe in justice as a social construct, a tool to make sure we keep our agreements. Justice is not to be confused with fairness. It is possible for you to get away with immoral acts, and neither god nor karma will punish you. The world is not fair. This is for us living here to deal with. No saviour will descend from the sky. Even though I am a relativist, I think we are responsible.
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Post by incognito on Apr 20, 2009 23:06:07 GMT -5
my family is catholic, but i myself was never really religious. I remember doing communion, but didnt even do a confession. i dont think i went to church between since i was 14. I think ever since pronouncing myself as atheist, i havent really changed morally, but more intellectually. i am reading atheist literature, taking philosophy and participating daily, and expanding on researching and discussion skills. i also became more curious about politics and different religions.
i think someone else said it earlier, about how i realized this is my only life and i am going to make the best and trying to make it better for everyone else as best as i can.
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Post by rookie on Apr 21, 2009 11:22:51 GMT -5
Actually, I think I am a better person since "loosing my faith". I do more what society calls good, and I think I'm doing it for better reasons. I find myself doing the right thing because it's the right thing, not because someone said I have to or be punished. I also find myself a lot more respectful of other cultures. I see more than just one way, and I see that my way is not always the best. And I feel a lot better about myself at the end of the day.
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