My main rant clarified + definition of fundie

[adventurehayes]

So I just ranted and ranted and ranted on the main page-
www.fstdt.com/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=54620
but then I realised I was ranting against 2009 so it seemed wasted effort!

But that quote and the comments did make me see some of you guys as a bit of a bunch of hipocrits who adhere to western liberalism with the same kind of "we're right and everyone else is an idiot" attitude that you accuse others of. Maybe you see me as doing the same but hear me out first...

First thing- our definition of fundie in relation to that quote-

The comment was indiginous australians saying a woman playing the didgeridoo would make her barren does count, I guess, as, from the FAQ "adherence to Bronze Age mythology" but they are not trying to arrogantly force those views on others. They are criticising an outsider who doesn't share their views yes, but in the context of their own instrument, their own culture, and they were even talking about "our culture" in the quotes given!

Am I the only one who thinks that "arrogant, "know-it-all-and-confidently-force-it-on-everyone-else" authoritarian" (also from the FAQ) doesn't apply here. "FORCE" being the crucial word here. "Protecting" is a better word than forcing in this context. The didgeridoo is none of our business and we don't have to have anything to do with it! We CHOSE to culturally appropriate it so we therefore can expect them to have opinions on the subject! Just like climbing Uluru! Or- on a rather different subject, taking off your shoes when entering a buddhist temple!

If you think I'm over reacting, its just an instrument, well you would see it is as just an instrument, you are probably a westerner and understanding other cultures and how an instrument could be more than just an instrument is hard for us. We don't have our own sacred instruments. Respect what you don't understand! After all you accuse christians of hating on things they don't understand (evolution). Now if they were saying women shouldn't play ANY instruments that'd be a different matter as we have our own musical traditions that are none of our business! To prove I don't have double standards-

-A christian complaining about someone mocking jesus whilst accepting we all have the right not to not believe in jesus is not forcing anything on us and is not fundie! (though I think such a christian should develop a thicker skin and learn to take mocking but that's a seperate issue entirely!). Their prophet- their rules.
-A muslim getting offended at someone drawing mohammed whilst not saying anything about our right to draw faces and figures or drink alcohol etc. is not a fundie. Their prophet- their rules.

ANYWAY- if I wanted to JUST talk about that one quote I would have posted in the main page violation thread (where this huge rant would seem seriously out of place anyway)- but this raises further issues about analysing ourselves.

The western liberal cultural norm, no more universally right than any other cultural norm, is one of maximum (with some limits) equality and personal freedom in areas concerning career, dress sense, hobby activities, sexual partner preference etc. Gender equality is western. I agree with it but still know it is just a part of our culture.

Now I'm sufficiently part of western culture myself to be queasy about child mariages and totally apalled at the man has all the power point of view and women must do as they are told point of view (but to take my argument to the logical conclusion I guess even that must be seen as "just a different culture" eeeek.... I won't go that far! eeeugh!! I do share the western viewpoint on most things). But when it comes to something as inoffensive as sacred instruments and calling that misogynistic that just comes across as very narrow minded (which is where the hipocrisy comes in)! Surely you can see above your own liberal western cultural upbringing enough to understand that it is simply a different way of looking at the world! Just try!

But anyway, after that massive rant, what I was trying to say is that the point when you dismiss any other culture practise as narrow minded, misogynistic, ignorant and fundie you are being narrow minded and a tad fundie yourself....

Think about that next time a somewhat borderline quote comes up, even if it is by a christian!

Edited: And in case it wasn't really obvious I posted as "not a fundie" on the main page

[Dragon Zachski]

Um, hi.

I don't think you need to rant at us necessarily.

Having said that, I will say that it was still a sexist quote about not allowing women to play the didgeroo, and it was born out of ignorance (no instrument would turn a woman barren.) This is something that can quantifiably be proven false, much like geocentrism and such. Sexist quotes are included with fundie quotes.

[scotsgit]

Jan 22, 2011 0:41:01 GMT -5 Dragon Zachski said:

I don't think you need to rant at us necessarily.

That's what I was thinking.

Also

Surely you can see above your own liberal western cultural upbringing enough to understand that it is simply a different way of looking at the world! Just try!

Ummm, people here are aware of that, they're (generally) not idiots.

[Admiral Lithp]

This is Fundie. It is trying to say that women should not be allowed to play the Di--the instrument because of their beliefs. That is, maybe not misogynistic, but definitely sexist. You are trying too hard to justify it.

[Yla]

I haven't read the quote in question. But I agree with your issue in at least some points: all too often, quotes get mainpaged which aren't actually fundie, just profoundly religious.

And this:

-A christian complaining about someone mocking jesus whilst accepting we all have the right not to not believe in jesus is not forcing anything on us and is not fundie!
-A muslim getting offended at someone drawing mohammed whilst not saying anything about our right to draw faces and figures or drink alcohol etc. is not a fundie.

is so much seconded. It's not okay to mock and laugh at other people's religions. It's okay to politely debate and point out inconsistencies, it's okay to defend yourself if someone tries to apply his beliefs on you, it's not okay for a religious person to attack those who don't believe, it may be legal to mock and laugh, but as a question of morals and politeness, you shouldn't do it. Tolerance, golden rule, and all that.

[shykid]

[Oriet]

That rant reads to me as "how dare you call a misogynist a misogynist because of the misogynist culture they're from!"

Personally, I don't give half a crap about culture for this sort of thing. Oppression is oppression, not matter how you try to spin it, or however much history is behind it. Tradition by itself is pretty silly, but holding onto harmful tradition for no other reason than "it's tradition" is not only pretty horrific, it's also quite fundy.

That said, some cultural aspects, like cuisine, architecture, fashion, and festivals, are pretty awesome, just so long as harmful aspects are removed.

[impatiens]

[Sigmaleph]

OK, bear in mind two things a) I rarely if ever venture down the mainpage or admin any more, and b) I speak for myself, not anyone else.

That said, that was a fundie quote. Not because it goes against "western liberalism", but because it's people getting their panties in wad over someone not acting according to their (sexist) mythology, and invoking superstition to say she should.

Not the fundiest of all quotes, certainly. Fairly mild. But still fundie. That they are actually "enraged" over this and voicing complaints about it strongly suggests that they are trying to force their view that women shouldn't play the didgeridoo on everyone else. But, even if they weren't, forcing your views on someone else is not a prerequisite for being a fundie. Someone saying that homosexuality is caused by demon possession is fundie regardless of whether they are campaigning against gay marriage or just voicing their opinion in some random corner of the interwebs.

Respect what you don't understand! After all you accuse christians of hating on things they don't understand (evolution).

No, see, we accuse Creationists of declaring a theory to be false without having the most basic understanding of it.

I may not know the history of the tradition that bans women from playing the didgeridoo because it make them barren, but I do know enough about similar superstitions and how they usually work out to confidently declare it to be false. Further, I don't have to respect a culture's sex-based restriction to playing an instrument, because it's, um, sexist. Blame it on my western liberalism if you will, but I'm sure that sexism is a bad thing. An objectively bad thing. Given two cultures whose only difference is that one has mandatory gender roles and the other does not, the latter is superior and cultural subjectivism be damned.

And I will apply the same standards to anyone complaining about other people not treating their particular superstitions with enough respect, be they a Christian, a Muslim, an atheist or anyone else.

Gender equality, be it towards positions of power or playing instruments, is the right position to take. Not because it's a part of western liberalism, but because it is a matter of fact that women are equally capable of doing any of those things and to deny them the freedom to do so is, y'know, a bad thing. This isn't about saying "any other cultural practices are bad". Most are innocuous and many are probably better. But some are definitely worse.

[Admiral Lithp]

Why DO they think the didgeridoo will make women barren?

[anti-nonsense]

Jan 22, 2011 18:09:16 GMT -5 Admiral Lithp said:

Why DO they think the didgeridoo will make women barren?

Because they're stupid sexist morons.

[Admiral Lithp]

You're just not being understanding of the culture because you're liberal & have to be right.

Or something.

[scotsgit]

I also can't work out what'd good about saying to a woman, who I believe was pregnant at the time, "I hope you become barren", come to that, I can't see that as acceptable to say to any woman. That to me is the kind of shite that fundies come out with.

[Admiral Lithp]

As far as I'm aware, he's saying it WILL happen, not he HOPES it will happen. Kind of like how if you started slurping down Extra Large cups of radioactive waste, I could confidently say that you WILL get cancer & die, not that this is my hope. Only I'm not retarded.