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Post by MaybeNever on Apr 20, 2011 1:30:54 GMT -5
This might lead to a paradox: "We'll play God to fix God's mistake, because God is all knowing and all powerful and says gays are bad." If you want a current example of this, Iran has the second highest rate of sex change operations. They're actually partially funded by the government because they see it as curing homosexuality. So according to this logic, homosexuality is so unnatural that it's okay to unnaturally change one's physical body, the body God himself made, in order to avoid it. The concept of something being "unnatural" is truly baffling. American cheese, which I believe is made of a material from another dimension. I rest my case!
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Post by sylvana on Apr 20, 2011 1:43:13 GMT -5
My personal opinion on this is complicated. If there was some amazing pill that could cure the gay, I believe it would be a good thing. Being gay is natural and does not have to be changed. However, as I am sure the homosexual people on this site can attest to, there are a number of difficulties with being homosexual. Aside from the persecution and such from external parties, you have the problem that ones dating pool is very small. Add to this the inherent difficulties in displaying affection to each other, the options are far more limited than for heterosexual couples, and this can cause tension in relationships. Not to mention that the relationships themselves with clashing same gender personalities can be a whole pile of trouble too.
All these things can be overcome, and true love and happiness found, but it is much harder to accomplish for homosexual people. It would make their lives so much easier to cast that aside and live as heterosexuals if such a cure existed and actually worked.
That said though, Sexuality is a huge part of ones identity. To have that changed, it would feel as though the integrity of your own self identity is questionable. That itself could be quite traumatic for those who take the cure.
From the perspective of society, it gets stickier. The religious right would be campaigning for it to be made mandatory if they could. Further I could see the psychological societies of the world probably coming out in favor of its usage. Even though homosexuality is natural and not specifically harmful, it is very similar to say having poor eyesight, missing a limb, or having diabetes. These are all natural, but people who have these conditions are at a disadvantage and have a harder time just living life. Which is why, medicine has found ways to allow people with those problem to live on as equal a level as everyone else.
Lastly, in those countries where they enjoy stoning gays, a cure like this wont solve a thing. The ignorance that leads people to stone those different from themselves would prevent them from even thinking of changing the person. Examples of this is in Africa where any number of people with treatable problems are killed as witches or demons or being different.
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Post by wmdkitty on Apr 20, 2011 2:13:46 GMT -5
This might lead to a paradox: "We'll play God to fix God's mistake, because God is all knowing and all powerful and says gays are bad." If you want a current example of this, Iran has the second highest rate of sex change operations. They're actually partially funded by the government because they see it as curing homosexuality. So according to this logic, homosexuality is so unnatural that it's okay to unnaturally change one's physical body, the body God himself made, in order to avoid it. The concept of something being "unnatural" is truly baffling. You want "unnatural", I'll give you unnatural -- Spam, tofu, twinkies (well, ANY Hostess snack, really)... THAT is un-fucking-natural. Gender identity and sexual orientation/preference*? Variations on a theme, and nothing to stress over -- nobody's harmed by the existence of LGBTQI (did I miss any?) folks, so why the fuss from some corners of society? I don't get it. *I include "preference" because, well, I'm bi, and I feel like I have a preference, rather than a fixed "orientation".
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Post by Mlle Antéchrist on Apr 20, 2011 3:01:43 GMT -5
I ain't fucking with my hormones without very good cause, it gets very risky very fast. Be glad you're not a sexually active female, then.
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Post by lighthorseman on Apr 20, 2011 7:33:40 GMT -5
So... anyone want to start a pool on how long before this "article" starts showing up on NARTH as a really truly breakthrough?
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Post by shadowpanther on Apr 20, 2011 7:52:54 GMT -5
So... anyone want to start a pool on how long before this "article" starts showing up on NARTH as a really truly breakthrough? Given the state of science journalism these days? I give it two weeks.
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Post by foolishwisdom on Apr 20, 2011 11:32:03 GMT -5
The concept of something being "unnatural" is truly baffling. You want "unnatural", I'll give you unnatural -- Spam, tofu, twinkies (well, ANY Hostess snack, really)... THAT is un-fucking-natural. Gender identity and sexual orientation/preference*? Variations on a theme, and nothing to stress over -- nobody's harmed by the existence of LGBTQI (did I miss any?) folks, so why the fuss from some corners of society? I don't get it. *I include "preference" because, well, I'm bi, and I feel like I have a preference, rather than a fixed "orientation". First, these paranoids have a positive/negative view on words. Basically, Words like (un)natural, family, marriage, sexuality, etc. It's all just a case of: Now, on to my point, in my observation, the paranoids are taught to go by a "It's not what you do, but whom you are that I judge you by." As an example: The God of the bible is...well, he has issues. But the reason why they can respect someone despite doing malice is because, well he's God. Well more specifically, they were taught that God = good. So, because he is God, and God = good, that alone is enough to just shrug off anything malevolent, and making a big deal over anything good he does... Now the flip side, on LGBTQIs, isn't too different. Being taught that anyone who don't conform to God's "law/design" is evil. Thus, paranoids automatically assume that anyone who is a LGBTQI = Evil. And likewise, any benevolent action a LGBTQI may do gets a "meh" reaction; and anytime a LGBTQI does even the smallest bit of misdeeds, the paranoids can deem it proof enough it's a deed against humanity. So unfortunately, just the fact that the LGBTQI exists, is enough for the paranoids to feel threatened. Edit: Fixed some typos
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Post by SimSim on Apr 20, 2011 17:05:27 GMT -5
The concept of something being "unnatural" is truly baffling. You want "unnatural", I'll give you unnatural -- Spam, tofu, twinkies (well, ANY Hostess snack, really)... THAT is un-fucking-natural. Erm, tofu is natural. It's bean curds.
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xotan
Full Member
Posts: 112
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Post by xotan on Apr 21, 2011 17:33:25 GMT -5
I'm gay. I'm 68. I have been gay since my first sexual stirring. It has in a major way defined who I am and my position in society, to such an extent that at this stage of my life it would be impossible for me to envisage being anything other than I am.
I am sane, caring and loving; industrious, even though retired; I am creative, in writing, music and other areas. My IQ is fairly high and I did well in school and in my work/career. I achieved. And I achieved as a gay man living initially in a fairly hostile world. Happily that has mostly changed so that I am 'out' and living openly with my partner of almost 40 years in a small village (300 souls) in France. We are accepted and welcomed as who we are.
Undoubtedly it was often a struggle to cope with the generally accepted homophobia of my earlier years, and pehaps at that time I might even have welcomed a 'cure'. The position now, however, is that I can now see that as an escape from who I really was/am. Who and what I am I have built on the basis that I am gay. I had no choice in that condition, but I made of it what I could. Having invested so much in making a go of my life, in spite of what was a bad trick of fate, I would feel that to seek a 'cure' at this stage would be a betrayal of all those who helped me (both gays and straights) to the reasonable succeess that my life has been. I would also be abandoning the emotional ties and attachments to my partner and the friends that I have valued over most of my life. In effect, I would be becoming a fraud, ultimately living a lie. No pill now available, or presently conceivable, would be able to make the adjustments a changeover to heterosexuality would demand. It is a price I could not pay. Who and what I am does not even permit it.
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Post by A Reasonable Rat on Apr 21, 2011 18:54:19 GMT -5
According to Fundie logic, everyone is actually born bisexual.
If being homosexual is a choice, and every person is apparently susceptible to being lured into it, that means that they believe the default position for humans is bisexual - able to be attracted to either gender. Otherwise why would it be so scary to them?
Can we first make a pill that cures stupid?
Something that might help undo religious brainwashing?
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Post by foolishwisdom on Apr 21, 2011 20:28:58 GMT -5
According to Fundie logic, everyone is actually born bisexual. If being homosexual is a choice, and every person is apparently susceptible to being lured into it, that means that they believe the default position for humans is bisexual - able to be attracted to either gender. Otherwise why would it be so scary to them? The whole reason fundies say being a heterosexual is "normal" is because men and women were "created" for each other, in the same sense that peanut butter and jelly were both created for each other. And, by an amazing coincidence, only a man and a woman can procreate. For that reason alone, it would make sense that homosexuality is biologically unnatural. And to add to the limited, and rather uncreative, thinking of these people, remember that fundies think of sex only for procreation, sex CANNOT be used for enjoyment. After all, AIDS, STIs, etc is a punishment from God for enjoying something that shouldn't be enjoyed. Which is why condoms are of the damned, because they can help you avoid God's punishment. Which what you deserve for not keeping your sex drive under control. (Which God gave you...do NOT QUESTION HIS HOLYNESS!!) But I do find the fundies logic damming: For the reasons on the first paragraph, they state that everyone is "naturally" heterosexual. But at the same time, they also treat sexuality as being very fluid. EDIT: Fixed some grammar errors
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Post by Sigmaleph on Apr 21, 2011 23:46:55 GMT -5
Can we first make a pill that cures stupid? You mean cyanide?
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Post by tygerarmy on Apr 22, 2011 2:30:47 GMT -5
Can we first make a pill that cures stupid? You mean cyanide? & Happiness
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Post by Dragon Zachski on Apr 22, 2011 12:54:41 GMT -5
But I do find the fundies logic damming: For the reasons on the first paragraph, they state that everyone is "naturally" heterosexual. But at the same time, they also treat sexuality as being very fluid. Actually, it's not even that. It's that they think of homosexuality as more along the lines of a fetish. Same for bisexuality. They believe that ALL people are straight, but 2% have chosen to have this evil perversion that leads to disease and death because gay sex is (apparently) super sexually pleasing and awesome and if given complete freedom EVERYONE would give into carnal desires and become gay. Fundies don't use logic the same way we do. But it is rather telling that they are under the impression that gay sex is innumerably more pleasurable than straight sex.
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Post by Rat Of Steel on Apr 22, 2011 16:38:27 GMT -5
Fundies don't use logic the same way we do. But it is rather telling that they are under the impression that gay sex is innumerably more pleasurable than straight sex. Well, of course. After all, if pleasure = sin, then sin = pleasure, right?
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