A biblical question.

[id82]

I've been hearing a lot that todays christian fundamentalists follow the teachings of Paul a lot more than following the teachings of Jesus.
Now I'm pretty aware that they don't follow the teachings of Jesus seeing as how a lot of his teachings are being completely ignored. But I don't know much about Paul having never read that part of the bible; so I was wondering if you guys who have a better understanding of this could explain to me who this Paul was? And what did he teach that todays fundies are following?

[doktor]

St Paul? Catholics justify their religion by saying Jesus said Peter to build the church "upon this rock". Don't know, maybe Jesus meant crack rock they were smoking and not the rock of Vatican.

Easy way to understand Paul is that every "hippy like" message in Christianity came from Jesus and every "Right Wing" stuff came from Paul's mouth. Then he got arrested and sent to Rome since he appealed as a Roman citizen and was kept in house arrest.

[id82]

But what right wing things did Paul say? If I Wiki him I only get a sketchy Biography of him and not what he said for christianity.

[Damen]

Allow 4Chan to explain it.

[ausador]

Saul (Paul) of Tarsus was a Jew and also a Roman citizen who persecuted Christians before his conversion to an Apostle. Paul makes up a hugh chunk of the new testament, Romans, CorinthiansI and II, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, ThessaloniansI and II, TimothyI and II, Titus, and Philemon were all letters written by Paul. Paul traveled widely as a missionary founding churches and spreading his version of the gospel, most people credit him with making Christianity into a mainstream religion because rather than trying to convert Jews he went after Gentiles. As I already said quite a lot of the new testament is either written by or about Paul. Jesus may have had a message but Paul was the one who decided how to tell it, where to tell it, and to whom. As the "founder" of the missionary style church he set policies and "organized" Christianity for the first time. He got arrested for appearing at the temple in Jeruselum and was to be shipped to Rome but was shipwrecked on the way. Eventually was sent back to Rome where he spent his final two years under house arrest.

Now that we covered his biography we get to what he taught. Paul hardly ever quoted Jesus directly, he spent all his time saying what Jesus meant or had wanted to do. When he did that Paul's version of Jesus doesn't seem much like the one found in Matthem, Mark, Luke, John, or Acts. Pauls interpretation of what Jesus "wanted" is generally pretty hateful and misogynistic, promoted slavery, and is markedly different than the previous stories of Christ in the new testament. Really you should just read Romans and then the next 12 books of the bible to get the full idea, they are all attributed to him.


[Edit: The shorter version is that Paul was the first Fundie. ]

[Vypernight]

What Damen said, though here's my view.

Saul was on his horse when his horse got spooked and threw him. Saul fell off and hit his head on a rock. Believing that Jesus spoke to him, he changed his name to Paul and went from hating Christians to hating everybody (gays, women, Jews, Christians, good people, etc.).

The only things I remember him saying the most were that gays are evil and women aren't allowed to speak in church.

[John E]

What Ausador said, except that I would like to add that some of the letters in the New Testament supposedly by Paul are believed by most historians to have been forged. Specifically, Timothy I & II and Titus are pretty much definitely not by Paul, and it's in the forged letters where we find a lot of the worst of Paul, such as his admonitions that women should be silent in church and submit to their husbands. So at least to some extent, Paul gets a bad rap, because of what some later authoritarians wrote in his name.

[dasfuchs]

Amazingly it all makes sense now how people go from love thy neighbor to fuck off faggot

[devilschaplain2]

All the homophobic and misogynistic passages of the New Testament came from Paul, and not Jesus. Like in Romans 1:27 when he said:

"In the same way, their males also abandoned their natural sexual function toward females and burned with lust toward one another. Males committed indecent acts with males, and received within themselves the appropriate penalty for their perversion."

How sweet.

[antichrist]

The Muslims are actually a pretty good source on this, mostly because they consider Paul the Antichrist.

www.guidetosalvation.com/Website/PaulvsJesus.htm

Jesus [/size]
Sent only to the Jews

Matthew 10: 5These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not

Matthew 15:24But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

John 4:22Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

Matthew 7:6Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

Keep the law for ever
Matthew 5:17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. 18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Luke 16: 17And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

John 14:15If ye love me, keep my commandments.

1John 3:22And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

see also: Luke 10:25-28, Luke 18:18-25, Matthew 7:18-23, Matthew 25: 31-46, Matthew 5:19 (see * below for James take on works)

Jesus said don't
Matthew 5:22But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Do not enter Samaria
Matthew 10: 5These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not

Feed the hungry
Matthew 25:35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. 41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


Paul [/size]
Sent to Gentiles
Acts 13:47For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

Acts 18:6And when they opposed themselves, and blasphemed, he shook his raiment, and said unto them, Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean; from henceforth I will go unto the Gentiles.

Acts 28:28Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

Romans 15:16That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.

Rom. 10:12For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

See also: Eph. 3:8, Acts 20:21, 26:17-18, 20, 23, 22:21, Rom. 1:5, 13, 3:29, 11:11-13, 15:9, Gal. 2:2, 7-9, 3:14, Eph. 3:6, 1 Tim. 2:7, 3:16, 2 Tim. 4:17

Don't keep the law
Roman 7: 4Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God

Galatians 3:13Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree

Romans 7:6But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Romans 6:14For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

See also: Rom. 10:4, 3:28, Gal. 3:23-25, 5:2-4, 18, 2:19, 21, 16, 4:10, Eph. 2:15, Col. 2:14, 16, Heb. 7:19, 1 Cor. 8:8 and more.

Paul said...
1 Cor. 15:36Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die

1 Cor. 4:10We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in Christ; we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honourable, but we are despised.

Rom. 1:22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

1 Cor. 3:18Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.

Entered Samaria
Acts 15: 3And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.

Don't feed the hungry
2 Thessalonians:10For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.

[schizophonic]

Apr 25, 2009 15:12:52 GMT -5 @antichrist said:

The Muslims are actually a pretty good source on this, mostly because they consider Paul the Antichrist.

www.guidetosalvation.com/Website/PaulvsJesus.htm

Jesus

[/size]
Sent only to the Jews

Matthew 10: 5These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not

Matthew 15:24But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

John 4:22Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

Matthew 7:6Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

Keep the law for ever
Matthew 5:17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. 18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Luke 16: 17And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

John 14:15If ye love me, keep my commandments.

1John 3:22And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

see also: Luke 10:25-28, Luke 18:18-25, Matthew 7:18-23, Matthew 25: 31-46, Matthew 5:19 (see * below for James take on works)

Jesus said don't
Matthew 5:22But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Do not enter Samaria
Matthew 10: 5These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not

Feed the hungry
Matthew 25:35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. 41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


Paul [/size]
Sent to Gentiles
Acts 13:47For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

Acts 18:6And when they opposed themselves, and blasphemed, he shook his raiment, and said unto them, Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean; from henceforth I will go unto the Gentiles.

Acts 28:28Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

Romans 15:16That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.

Rom. 10:12For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

See also: Eph. 3:8, Acts 20:21, 26:17-18, 20, 23, 22:21, Rom. 1:5, 13, 3:29, 11:11-13, 15:9, Gal. 2:2, 7-9, 3:14, Eph. 3:6, 1 Tim. 2:7, 3:16, 2 Tim. 4:17

Don't keep the law
Roman 7: 4Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God

Galatians 3:13Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree

Romans 7:6But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Romans 6:14For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

See also: Rom. 10:4, 3:28, Gal. 3:23-25, 5:2-4, 18, 2:19, 21, 16, 4:10, Eph. 2:15, Col. 2:14, 16, Heb. 7:19, 1 Cor. 8:8 and more.

Paul said...
1 Cor. 15:36Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die

1 Cor. 4:10We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in Christ; we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honourable, but we are despised.

Rom. 1:22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

1 Cor. 3:18Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.

Entered Samaria
Acts 15: 3And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.

Don't feed the hungry
2 Thessalonians:10For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat. [/quote]

+1 for that. thanks!

[mice34]

Apr 25, 2009 15:12:52 GMT -5 @antichrist said:

The Muslims are actually a pretty good source on this, mostly because they consider Paul the Antichrist.

I did not know that-- this amuses me.

[the sandman]

Apr 25, 2009 15:12:52 GMT -5 @antichrist said:

The Muslims are actually a pretty good source on this, mostly because they consider Paul the Antichrist.

Why would the Muslim faith consider anyone the "Anti-Christ?" Surely teaching that someone is the Anti-Christ is acknowledging the divine significance that Christianity ascribes to Jesus.

As for fundamentalist Christians far more following the teachings of Paul rather than Jesus, that's pretty much right on the money. The Pauline Tradition got real popular around the Reformation and has just steamrollered Western fundamentalism ever since.

Some major differences between Paul and Jesus? Well, Jesus by all accounts was a very loving and accepting kind of guy. Always hanging around with prostitutes and low-lifes and admonishing anyone who thought they were better than anyone else. Paul? Not so much. Paul was more of a judgmental asshole.

Jesus, according to the scriptures, loved life and was quite upset at the prospect of losing it, going so far as to ask God if there was a way, ANY way that the whole salvation thing could be done without him having to be nailed to a tree. Paul? Paul was damn near creaming his toga at the idea of being martyred for his God.

Paul was a fanatic, pure and simple. And fanatics do not make good religious role models.

[Paradox]

Apr 24, 2009 5:18:51 GMT -5 Damen said:

Allow 4Chan to explain it.

You have no idea how much this made me laugh.

[skyfire]

Apr 24, 2009 6:07:03 GMT -5 ausador said:

Paul makes up a hugh chunk of the new testament, Romans, CorinthiansI and II, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, ThessaloniansI and II, TimothyI and II, Titus, and Philemon were all letters written by Paul.

He's also traditionally credited with writing Hebrews, despite it being a radical departure from his usual format as an author.

most people credit him with making Christianity into a mainstream religion because rather than trying to convert Jews he went after Gentiles.

Paul was specified as having Roman citizenship, making him a rather high muckety-muck. This gave him the ability to travel about without the Roman soldiers or anyone else giving him a lot of grief, and also why he was taken to Rome to confront Caesar (Roman citizens had the right to have Caesar judge legal matters involving them).

As I already said quite a lot of the new testament is either written by or about Paul. Jesus may have had a message but Paul was the one who decided how to tell it, where to tell it, and to whom. As the "founder" of the missionary style church he set policies and "organized" Christianity for the first time.

It wasn't so much that he organized Christianity (Peter, Jesus' selected successor, was doing that) as it was that he forced his views on a whole lot of people.

He got arrested for appearing at the temple in Jeruselum and was to be shipped to Rome but was shipwrecked on the way. Eventually was sent back to Rome where he spent his final two years under house arrest.

There's actually a dispute about that; an alternate history holds that he was let go and continued preaching for a few more years (going so far as to reach Spain) before being arrested again, hauled back to Rome once more, and executed by decapitation; the Tres Fontanas is purportedly the site of his execution.

Now that we covered his biography we get to what he taught. Paul hardly ever quoted Jesus directly, he spent all his time saying what Jesus meant or had wanted to do.

What a lot of people don't seem to realize is that there's an actual rift between Paul's theology and Peter's theology. While Paul actually did have some teachings that were in keeping with what the church under Peter was teaching, Paul also had a habit of going off on his own rants and tangents.