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Post by Green-Eyed Lilo on Apr 25, 2009 21:59:01 GMT -5
Does anyone else think heaven's just a bad idea? Hell is very easy to dismiss, but I hate the idea of heaven, too.
A few years ago, I flicked through a Christian magazine. In it was a story of a Christian husband and father who loved to ride his motorcycle. But his wife freaked out about it. They went to their pastor for advice. The pastor told him that there would be motorcycles in heaven, and he didn't need to ride them on earth and, I guess, expedite his trip to heaven. The man gave up his motorcycle.
That's what I hate. The idea that you are to put off all the pleasures of earth, all the things you see before you--motorcycles, sex, drinking, dancing, whatever--in hopes that you'll get them for eternity in heaven. That and the idea that this life is nothing but a test for eternity after you die. What if, you know, it's not *true*? I think the attitude of, say, Rapture Readians (or half my relatives!) is rather like spending all your grocery money on lottery tickets every week.
I'm a polytheistic Pagan, so I'm open to the idea of an afterlife. But I don't think the Christian concept of heaven or hell applies. I figure I'll enjoy what's before me and let eternity sort itself out, but that attitude seems to downright scare most people.
Does anyone else feel similarly?
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Post by Paradox on Apr 25, 2009 22:56:35 GMT -5
The RR version of heaven sucks. There was a quote about it in the hopper a few days ago, which said that there would be no sex in heaven. Well then it's not heaven is it dumbass. If anyone tells you they know the details of the afterlife, they're selling you a bill of goods. I probably don't have to tell you guys that, half of you don't believe in life after death anyway, but you'd be surprised how many people believe it.
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Post by Yahweh on Apr 25, 2009 23:04:44 GMT -5
That's what I hate. The idea that you are to put off all the pleasures of earth, all the things you see before you--motorcycles, sex, drinking, dancing, whatever--in hopes that you'll get them for eternity in heaven. A number of modern critics of religion have made similar observations. I seem to remember a few critics of Christian theology comment that Christianity places higher value on dying than living, and the climax of the entire religion -- Jesus' martyrdom on the cross -- is quite literally an exhaltation of a suicide. With that being said, your comments are not a mischaracterization of RR's philosophy of Heaven. FSTDT has a number of quotes from RR where, in plain words, they state that there is no point conserving fossil fuels, water, fighting pollution, curb global warming, because the Rapture is just around the corner. Even worse than that, a number of fundies give up on life and simply wait for the rapture that they'll never see in their lifetimes. They give up college, pursuit of a job, interest in helping others, because they believe that their actions are all for naught as the earth has 2 or 3 years to go. I've seen this attitude with my own eyes, and it is depressing, almost nihilistic.
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Post by Green-Eyed Lilo on Apr 25, 2009 23:17:46 GMT -5
With that being said, your comments are not a mischaracterization of RR's philosophy of Heaven. FSTDT has a number of quotes from RR where, in plain words, they state that there is no point conserving fossil fuels, water, fighting pollution, curb global warming, because the Rapture is just around the corner. *nods* My brother (who is an atheist agriculture major and aspiring organic farmer) and I both had our Rapture-believing relatives try to draw us into fights on and around Earth Day. They find all these pseudo-scientific reasons as to why twirly light bulbs, water filters, wind and solar power, recycling, hybrid vehicles, urban gardening, etc. don't work and shouldn't be done. It amazes us how willing they are to shit all over people who are trying to make something worthwhile happen. But, you know, treating the Earth like your home is an act of "worshipping the creation rather than the Creator", and God wants you to make as huge a mess as you can. It only makes sense in light of their beliefs on the afterlife. When we commisserated, we kept saying variations of, "If we treated their houses the way they treat their God's earth, we'd never get invited back, ever." Which sometimes doesn't seem like such a bad thing. </rant>
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Post by Thejebusfire on Apr 26, 2009 0:01:21 GMT -5
It's a good thing I don't know any of these crazies personally.
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Post by ironbite on Apr 26, 2009 1:29:42 GMT -5
Know what heaven really is? A holding pen for souls.
Ironbite-same with hell...only the waiting period's much longer.
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ytdn
New Member
Posts: 35
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Post by ytdn on Apr 26, 2009 2:32:39 GMT -5
I never really liked the RR version of heaven. It's just really shallow and materialistic, which isn't what Christianity is about. I hate it when I hear Rapture Readians saying "Don't do anything in life, you'll be rewarded in heaven", because, well, in my opinion, life is God's gift, and it'd be a shame to waste it. Same with looking after the Earth- God gave the Earth to humans to look after, so wrecking it would be bad.
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Post by Vypernight on Apr 26, 2009 4:06:05 GMT -5
I'm reading a book right now that sounds a lot like this topic. It's called, 'For Love of Evil,' (by Piers Anthony) and it's about a guy who becomes the devil.
I'll try not to spoil anything, but at one point, he goes to Heaven to meet with God and sees that pretty much all the souls in Heaven are bored out of their minds. There's even one section where lovers who have been faithful to each other in life get to spend eternity to each other. However, since carnal contact is forbidden in Heaven, they can only stand there looking at each other for eterity.
When the main character, Parry arrives, he drops off some souls that accidently ended up in Hell. He goes to speak with God, but God is too busy revelling in the awesome eternal presense of His Almightiness to acknowledge anyone else. As Parry gets ready to leave, one of the souls he released begs him to go with him; he liked Hell better.
After a while, several other souls beg for the same.
As I said, this thread reminded me of that part of the book.
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Post by Hades on Apr 26, 2009 4:14:03 GMT -5
To be really honest, I wouldn't want there to be an afterlife. I would assume that I, and most people, would probably become jaded over time. Of course I'd love to live for a long time, see/do/experience/learn everything there is. But there would ultimately come a time where I'd have enough.
I really try to wrap my head around the concept of eternity. To most people "live forever" sounds great in passing. But when I try to picture it, it doesn't seem pleasant to me. I think after awhile I'd probably be begging for an end.
The scariest thing about people like the Rapture Readians is the mentality that this earth and our race is only temporary. We know exactly how it's going to end, so burn as much gas as you want in that big SUV, blow up that foreign country, it's all part of the plan. I could certainly deal with people who believe with all their heart that there's an afterlife, and they get to go to it, IF it only effected them. Like the O.P.'s motorcycle guy. But these people effect everyone around them, and it's a very dangerous mindset to be in. It's certainly within our ability to obliterate this planet, and this is a time of heavy responsibility.
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Post by JonathanE on Apr 26, 2009 5:58:06 GMT -5
The concept of "heaven" is deeply rooted in human culture. It developed, I think, as a way to give meaning and purpose to what otherwise seems a purposeless and meaningless existence. Early church leaders understood that the "withdrawal" of access to heaven, via excommunication, was a powerful control tool, over both the masses and the elites.
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Post by maanantai on Apr 26, 2009 6:14:12 GMT -5
Idea of eternal life kinda scares me. Because what then would mean those lovely mornings when you wake up next to the person you love, or those small moments when you feel that everything is going to be better in your life, or the simple joy of colourful leaves that tell that summer is over? :/
As someone said in the hell thread, the pain would go numb after a while and I think that same would happen in heaven. Everything is your life and afterlife would really lose it's meaning sooner or later. It's really sad thought and extremely sad way to think of life. That nothing would matter anymore.
But then it would kinda explain their attitude at the environment and the planet that the rest of us have to share with them...
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Post by canadian mojo on Apr 26, 2009 7:06:43 GMT -5
For starters, fuck the wife. Do you have any idea how many times I've heard "my ex-wife made me sell my bike when we got married"? Love your partner warts and all or GTFO.
Secondly, I almost hope there is a heaven and that god has an attitude similar to mine. "You guys shit all over the waiting room, what makes you think I'm letting you fuckers in my livingroom?" A lot of people would crap themselves if they suddenly realized that conduct in this life matters.
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Post by skyfire on Apr 26, 2009 7:43:09 GMT -5
There's a number of alternate concepts for Heaven.
For example, the LDS concept is that once in Heaven people will have a chance to learn everything there is to learn about theology and existence, at which point they'll be tasked with sharing it with others. People can meet up again on the other side, but it'll still be busy times.
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Post by Yaezakura on Apr 26, 2009 8:05:31 GMT -5
There's a number of alternate concepts for Heaven. For example, the LDS concept is that once in Heaven people will have a chance to learn everything there is to learn about theology and existence, at which point they'll be tasked with sharing it with others. People can meet up again on the other side, but it'll still be busy times. And after you run out of people to teach and still have the infinite stretch of eternity ahead, what's next? An eternity of boredom is hardly my idea of paradise.
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Post by schizophonic on Apr 26, 2009 8:45:06 GMT -5
*nods* My brother (who is an atheist agriculture major and aspiring organic farmer) and I both had our Rapture-believing relatives try to draw us into fights on and around Earth Day. They find all these pseudo-scientific reasons as to why twirly light bulbs, water filters, wind and solar power, recycling, hybrid vehicles, urban gardening, etc. don't work and shouldn't be done. It amazes us how willing they are to shit all over people who are trying to make something worthwhile happen. But, you know, treating the Earth like your home is an act of "worshipping the creation rather than the Creator", and God wants you to make as huge a mess as you can. It only makes sense in light of their beliefs on the afterlife. When we commisserated, we kept saying variations of, "If we treated their houses the way they treat their God's earth, we'd never get invited back, ever." Which sometimes doesn't seem like such a bad thing. </rant> I frequently get into this with 90% of my family. Not the specifics, because I don't think they give a shit about urban gardening (for example), but they're fine with destroying the Earth, both because God will protect them and because the opposite is evil communism. I dread family gatherings because the conservitards and Jebus freaks all take the time to proudly proclaim even the dumbest of ideas, looking for a fight.
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