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Post by peanutfan on Apr 30, 2009 18:52:33 GMT -5
We have a discussion thread about whether it's possible for a fundie and non-fundie to have a successful romantic relationship; now, I find myself faced with the question of whether a fundie and non-fundie can even be friends successfully.
For some reason, even when I wasn't living in places that have large fundie populations (I currently live in Maryland), I find I tend to attract religious fundamentalists most easily as friends. That's been slowly changing, but recently I ran into a former classmate who happens to be fundamentalist, and our friendship seems tentatively renewed.
The reason I find myself asking if he and I can be friends is because our views of just about everything are so totally different; just about the only thing we have in common is an interest in martial arts. Any time we have a conversation on any other topic, we end up in an argument because of our diametrically opposed worldviews, and it's not helped by the fact that I was raised Christian and rejected it. Of course, since I was raised Lutheran, he doesn't think I was raised as a "true Christian", but that's beside the point.
Any advice?
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Post by MaybeNever on Apr 30, 2009 20:50:04 GMT -5
I think it IS possible, but it would probably require not even conversationally dabbling with a number of different topics. As a consequence, I doubt the friendship would ever acquire much real depth to it and may well not be worth the effort - it could easily become a headache, always walking on eggshells, unless some sort of neutrally-rooted rapport is established.
If your worldviews are diametrically opposed I think it would be very difficult indeed unless you each find substantial redeeming features in each other. Friendships are built on respect, and unless you can respect each other despite those differences, it's not real likely. That said, such things do happen.
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Post by Hades on May 1, 2009 4:54:25 GMT -5
When I was a YEC fundie I was (and still am) friends with an Atheist and a Witch. I was never the discriminating type, even as a fundie. I guess it helped that I never tried to witness to them.
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Dio Fa
New Member
Forgive me Lord for I got caught
Posts: 43
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Post by Dio Fa on May 1, 2009 14:45:47 GMT -5
I am friends with a married couple in the neighbourhood who are Fundamentalist Christians. They aren't the batshit insane types, as represented on the main page at FSTDT; rather they practice their religion quietly and do not attempt to discuss it with me. Since they show me that kind of respect, I return the favour by not discussing my point of view with respect to religion with them.
They are genuinely nice people and we do find interesting topics for conversation. However, I do believe that such friendships are probably rare.
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Post by antichrist on May 1, 2009 15:03:16 GMT -5
I think it depends on the fundie.
I have fundie friends. Except they're not what we call fundies, they follow the teachings of Jesus not Paul. So we can go out for a glass of wine, we talk about kids, fishing, weather, stupid shit. Religion never comes up other than if I'm having a problem, they will say they'll pray for me.
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Post by shelly87 on May 1, 2009 23:14:31 GMT -5
Well its interesting you bring this up. I'm was raised by fundamentalist christians, and was one myself until highschool, then became lapsed, and in college I finally rejected christianity and now think of myself as agnostic. The rest of my family (minus my sister) are all christians and for the most part I get along pretty well with them as long as I don't bring up religion. However, they are always bringing god into ev-er-y-thing, and sometimes I object and it causes some strife. But, they're family so they have to love me.
When it comes to friends, the reason I said this was interesting was because I recently lost a friend cause she's a conservative christian and ..I'm not. When we first met in college we were both kinda lapsed, non-practicing christians with some conservative attitudes but over time I learned more about christianity and social issues and became more liberal and of course lost my faith. But she started dating this conservative catholic and from there we just veered onto two different paths. I was cool staying friends with her despite the fact we had different views (especially since we were roomates) and I never tried to change her mind or attack her views. But then she told me that she couldn't be friends with a mutual friend of ours because he's gay, and that pissed me off so I started distancing myself from her. And then she told me she couldn't be friends with me because the bible says you shouldn't be friends with non-christians. (which as far as I know isn't anywhere in there)
Turns out she was a racist bitch who thought Obama was a muslim socialist trying to destroy our country...so yeah its probably for the best. Caused a big rift between me and our other roomates tho and I ended up having to move out cause they wouldn't get rid of a cat (im allergic) and it was too depressing seeing her everyday.
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Post by rrvisitor on May 4, 2009 11:01:50 GMT -5
I'm a visitor from RR:
"now, I find myself faced with the question of whether a fundie and non-fundie can even be friends successfully."
It's a lot easier in real life than on forums. On forums everything tends to be in absolutes and people will say things that they would never say in person. I read some of the vicious things here and wonder if the writers would ever say that to someone's face (probably not). In real life believers and non-believers get along just fine and frequently don't even know the religious leanings of their friends.
"I am friends with a married couple in the neighbourhood who are Fundamentalist Christians. They aren't the batshit insane types, as represented on the main page at FSTDT; rather they practice their religion quietly and do not attempt to discuss it with me."
What is represented on the main page is not Christians trying to cram their beliefs down your throat, it's Christians hanging out on Christian boards talking about their passion. The remarks have been stolen from their context and placed here to poke fun at. Does that mean that the people that made those remarks are extremists? No, if you met them in person they are probably just like your neighbors.
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Post by Sandafluffoid on May 4, 2009 11:35:55 GMT -5
What is represented on the main page is not Christians trying to cram their beliefs down your throat, it's Christians hanging out on Christian boards talking about their passion. The remarks have been stolen from their context and placed here to poke fun at. Does that mean that the people that made those remarks are extremists? No, if you met them in person they are probably just like your neighbors. Regardless of the context-stealing allegations (which I'm not going to go into on this thread) you have a fair point, most fundies probably don't take their aggression out with them. But having that kind of world view can make having a friendship with someone who believes differently. I know that I totally stopped talking to one of my friends when she started an anti-immigration group on facebook. That said, one of my best friends is homophobic and against gay marriage, yet we remain friends despite the fact that I am bisexual. I think ultimately the personalities of people can overcome differing world views, but it is a lot harder when you are diametrically opposed to someone on an issue. Basically, it is possible for a fundie to be friends with a non-fundie, just a lot harder.
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Post by atheiess on May 4, 2009 11:42:55 GMT -5
I've tried to be friends with fundies before, but it usually doesn't last. Sometimes it's my own fault, and sometimes it's theirs.
I had a friend in college who was becoming a good friend. When she found out I was an anthropology major she gave me the whole "how can you believe we came from monkeys" lecture and I just couldn't get passed that so I stopped hanging out with her. She was a pre-med major and I just don't understand how someone can study anatomy and physiology without accepting evolution. It was my own narrow mindedness that ended that friendship, and in some ways I regret it.
All the other potential-fundy friends find out I'm an atheist and then try to "save my soul" until I can eventually cut them off. They cease being friends at that point and start being annoying.
I agree with MayBeNever - the friendship couldn't have much depth, and as soon as the friendship starts to grow the differences will take over and split you apart.
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Post by captainhooker on May 4, 2009 12:34:41 GMT -5
I don't usually get along well with people who are too fundamental (re: extreme) in their views left or right, to be honest. I've met intolerant assholes at both ends of the spectrum.
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Post by crazalus on May 4, 2009 13:55:25 GMT -5
I'm a visitor from RR: "now, I find myself faced with the question of whether a fundie and non-fundie can even be friends successfully." It's a lot easier in real life than on forums. On forums everything tends to be in absolutes and people will say things that they would never say in person. I read some of the vicious things here and wonder if the writers would ever say that to someone's face (probably not). In real life believers and non-believers get along just fine and frequently don't even know the religious leanings of their friends. "I am friends with a married couple in the neighbourhood who are Fundamentalist Christians. They aren't the batshit insane types, as represented on the main page at FSTDT; rather they practice their religion quietly and do not attempt to discuss it with me." What is represented on the main page is not Christians trying to cram their beliefs down your throat, it's Christians hanging out on Christian boards talking about their passion. The remarks have been stolen from their context and placed here to poke fun at. Does that mean that the people that made those remarks are extremists? No, if you met them in person they are probably just like your neighbors. Ahem... I was married to a fundie... Married after a 9 year relationship... After 18 months of marriage, said partner got sucked into Christianity... at which point EVERYTHING had to do with Jesus. Absolutely everything... sex? Had to be in God's name... Food? Had to thank God for it... Me getting over an infection? Praise the Lord! (nothing to do with medication... must have been God) Now, while that's going on, the people at the church were busy spreading some of the most horrendous lies about me you'll have ever heard... and all because I was an Atheist. Apparently I didn't love my wife... I was being cruel to our cat... because I wasn't placing my entire life in the hands of Jesus I was Hitler... I was just seconds away from killing my wife because I didn't believe... I was infested with demons... I was Satan... I wanted to fuck kids... I was Homosexual... I was a demon... I wanted to sacrifice kids... Guess fucking what? Those were all the lies and shit they kept ramming down my wifes throat for over a year... and sometimes in front of me. They'd pray, infront of me, thanking God that I hadn't killed my wife yet! Thanking God that I hadn't been caught fucking a kid! Thanking God for his protection over my wife stopping her demon husband from attacking her! THAT is what "talking about their passion" led to... so don't even try to defend the stupid hateful shite some on RR come out with.
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Dio Fa
New Member
Forgive me Lord for I got caught
Posts: 43
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Post by Dio Fa on May 4, 2009 18:19:21 GMT -5
"I am friends with a married couple in the neighbourhood who are Fundamentalist Christians. They aren't the batshit insane types, as represented on the main page at FSTDT; rather they practice their religion quietly and do not attempt to discuss it with me." What is represented on the main page is not Christians trying to cram their beliefs down your throat, it's Christians hanging out on Christian boards talking about their passion. The remarks have been stolen from their context and placed here to poke fun at. Does that mean that the people that made those remarks are extremists? No, if you met them in person they are probably just like your neighbors. That is not my experience. Let's take my severely Catholic sister. When I made out my will, I sent her a copy, since I intend to bequeath certain things to both her and her children, when I die. She read the sections regarding my desire to have no religious rites performed on my behalf upon severe disability or death. Her response? "Mom wouldn't approve of this." Mom has been dead for a long time. What she really means is that she doesn't approve. Shut up, sis. You have known what my beliefs (and disbeliefs) have for a very long time. The family discussed it at the dinner table when I quit the church. Let's talk about my godmother. She once told me that God gave me epilepsy because I am an atheist. I bit my tongue until it bled because she is ill with cancer. Otherwise, I would have bit her head off. Let's take my "pious" uncle, pillar of the church where he lives. He doesn't talk to me because I "live in sin". Whatever. Let's talk about a once close friend who became "saved" during a stay in a psychiatric facility. I drink a beer, I sin. I smoke a cigarette, I sin. I listen to Blues, Jazz, etc., I sin. I'm going to hell unless I repent and give up my "evil ways". Blah, blah, blah. Goodbye. I could go on with examples like this forever, but I'm getting pissed off.
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Post by antichrist on May 4, 2009 18:39:25 GMT -5
****sigh*****
I have my passions. I've never said someone wasn't a true dog owner because they didn't own the same breed as me. I've never said cat owners are of the devil. I have poked fun at people who call it a s**tsu... (for fucks sake its a Shih Tzu, if your rescuing them you should know how to spell it). And I've never screamed at anyone who put their dogs down.
They're not stolen and we always supply the link so that you can get the context. Yeah a few get through the screening that are out of context, but usually if you read the comments, the submitter is the one that gets shot down.
Well, yeah they are extremists. I grew up with fundies, they scared the hell out of me as a child, and they scare me more now that I'm away from them. Most of them are one charismatic leader away from going completely Waco.
Then there's the new generation of fundie "warriors" coming up. The little bombers for Jesus. Yeah, they're a fun set. But when they're arrested for treason and murder, you people will be up in arms screaming persecution.
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Post by m52nickerson on May 5, 2009 7:00:47 GMT -5
What is represented on the main page is not Christians trying to cram their beliefs down your throat, it's Christians hanging out on Christian boards talking about their passion. The remarks have been stolen from their context and placed here to poke fun at. Does that mean that the people that made those remarks are extremists? No, if you met them in person they are probably just like your neighbors. In a way you are right. The problem is that if someone make an inane comment on a forum open for public viewing then that persons comments are open to public ridicule.
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Post by Oriet on May 17, 2009 6:23:17 GMT -5
Welcome to FSTDT. For co-workers, classmates, acquaintances, and other forms of light friendship this is most most often the case. It can also happen with good, or even close, friends, but close friendships that last for a great length of time will have occurrences where it comes up, and conversations where conflicting viewpoints get argued (in both the literary and colloquial usages of the term). As for people saying those viscous things in person, many actually would; not necessarily as directly, but with the full meaning and sentiment being conveyed. In fact, some people are more vicious in person than they ever are online because they have to think about what they type more than they do to just say it aloud. I say this not only from others' experiences, but from my own experiences with people I never expected it from. Often times it's more than a passion, it's an obsession. I make this distinction because they let, or make, it influence or flat off control every aspect of their life. Every activity, every interest, every necessity of living, no matter how much it impinges on their relationships, finances, or health, they'll ensure it meshes with their obsession. And no, it's not just religion people do this with, it can be anything, such as sports, alcohol, smoking, or being vegan, but it's most often recognized when the obsession is some manner of religion. As for them being extremists or not, it depends on the viewpoint. For one in such a group, they're not going to realize how extreme their opinion/viewpoint is, because they are surrounded by like minded people, and so they see it as the "norm." Groups of moderates (in anything) are also a breeding ground for extremists. Of course, just because the extremist is bad doesn't mean what they're extreme about is bad, or that the moderates are bad at all; but depending on how different the extremist's viewpoints are from the rest of the group, the group might not notice how extreme the extremist is. Likewise, the extremist might not realize how they're pushing things too far because the group they're in doesn't have enough contrast of difference in the strength or direction of their viewpoints. That being said, a non-extremist might not notice how extreme what they said sounds like, especially to one outside the group, for the very same reasons they wouldn't necessarily notice an extremist in their midst. Now, when you say "just like your neighbours," I'll assume you also mean family members until corrected otherwise. Now, with this assumption posited, I shall relay some of my experiences, which I know are hardly inclusive of the myriad relationship dynamics between fundie and non-fundie. To start, I'll go with my longest held friendship, that has recently totally fallen apart. I knew the friend, whom I shall refer to as "A," since adolescence. We spent a bit of time together, playing games, watching movies, and other similar activities, and I considered him my best friend. Religion hardly ever entered into our conversations, nor did politics ever get much talked about. Years later, after I was married, religion started getting talked about more, and so we learnt more how our views differed. Because of that we tried to avoid it when we could, cause we didn't want to loose the friendship over it. A year and a half ago, when I was 25, I finally came out to him that I was transsexual. He really didn't take it well, and the friendship almost died because of it, but A was able to rationalize things enough where, while what we could talk about and such was more limited, the friendship didn't die. Then he found out I'm also now an atheist, even though I was brought up Lutheran, had a huge argument with me over evolution, and since then I've had such little contact with him I'm not even sure I can consider him on the level of acquaintance anymore. All because he let his religious obsession get in the way. Then there is also members of my family, primarily my siblings, and my aunt and uncle. These are people I grew up with, shared the pains of life with, and have held many discussions about religion and politics with. My siblings especially so, as we were also the only constant friends for each other through our childhood as we moved around a bit. As years grew on though discussions turned more towards arguments, even though they were mostly from me asking questions, as they turned towards Orthodoxy and I turned first towards biblical literalism and then away from Christianity altogether. This finally culminated to a head last fall, where they all decided they couldn't eat under the same roof as me, nor even spend time in proximity to me, all because I'm trans and atheist. I'm really not sure which of the two disturbs them more, as they have not enlightened me as to which it is, nor am I on any sort of speaking terms with them for any kind of question. But, once again they let their views get in the way of a long lasting relationships, choosing their religious obsession over even keeping a birthday and Christmas card level of relationship with me. Now, to give an experience counter to those above, my in-laws have actually been surprisingly supportive of my being transsexual. Well, at least with the caveat that my mate and I don't have "lesbian sex," which technically we haven't since I've not been able to afford corrective surgery yet. Yet, they are Assemblies of God and quite active in their church, going to every service (morning and evening on Sunday and Wednesday nights) and being musicians for the congregation, and are also pretty politically conservative, thinking Bush did a swell job and that liberalism needs to die. Now, granted we don't have all that much communication with them, but it is still there, despite the religious and political differences (I describe myself as liberal with heavy socialist tendencies). They also don't preach at us, or try pushing their religion at us, even though we're atheist. They honestly surprised my mate and I with this, as we were sure they'd react the most negative to my being trans and to our atheism, yet they haven't allowed that to change the relationship between us. But then, while they hold fundamentalist beliefs (including, I think, the rapture), they're not what I'd really consider fundie; because while they let their religion even be an obsession, they don't let it fully control their life or destroy relationships. My family and friend however, whom don't really follow fundamentalist religion, I do consider fundie, because of how they allow their religious obsessions to destroy what was otherwise a good relationship. In closing of this TL;DR post, it has been my experience that while a friendship between a fundie and a non-fundie can work, it can only do so while there is no direct contention of strongly held beliefs. Contentious viewpoints can even be argued and discussed, but only so long as neither side gets too emotionally involved in it.
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