Fun With Taxes

[the sandman]

Here's a fun fact!

What do General Electric, American Electric, DuPont, Verizon, Boeing, Wells Fargo, FedEx, Honeywell, IBM, Yahoo, United Tech, and Exxon Mobile all have in common?

These multi-billion dollar US corporations pay an effective US Federal tax rate of NEGATIVE 1.5%. That's right, they not only pay no taxes at all, they get money FROM taxpayers.

Wow. I guess Perry and Bachman and all the other Republican candidates are right, aren't they? Corporations in the US are super overtaxed and need lower rates. I swear to God, Zeus, and any other being that may be listening, these motherfuckers are going to be the first up against the wall when the revolution comes. If these asshole corporations had actually PAID the Federal taxes they should have, rather than tap-dancing through the tax code using the special loopholes put in place specially for them, Federal revenues would have been a full 12% higher than they were.

[Amaranth]

Oh, I'ma have to spread this around. I knew GE paid no taxes, but nto the rest of the story.

[Mlle Antéchrist]

And yet, idiots will still claim that the US doesn't have a revenue problem.

Comparatively, the corporate tax rate here in Canada is (or was, last time I heard) at around 16.5% (used to be 18%, but the Tories lowered it).

[Napoleon the Clown]

It's the big, fuck-off corporations that pull this shit. The small businesses are much like your average American and actually pay what they should. It's not a matter of raising corporate tax rates, it's a matter of closing loopholes that get abused by the companies that are worth billions of dollars.

[sylvana]

Sept 10, 2011 23:30:34 GMT -5 Napoleon the Clown said:

It's the big, fuck-off corporations that pull this shit. The small businesses are much like your average American and actually pay what they should. It's not a matter of raising corporate tax rates, it's a matter of closing loopholes that get abused by the companies that are worth billions of dollars.

How would one close those loopholes? To my understanding the way those multi-billion dollar companies get out of paying taxes is to be based in whatever country offers the best rates which is of course not America.

[Art Vandelay]

Sept 12, 2011 2:21:37 GMT -5 sylvana said:

Sept 10, 2011 23:30:34 GMT -5 Napoleon the Clown said:

It's the big, fuck-off corporations that pull this shit. The small businesses are much like your average American and actually pay what they should. It's not a matter of raising corporate tax rates, it's a matter of closing loopholes that get abused by the companies that are worth billions of dollars.

How would one close those loopholes? To my understanding the way those multi-billion dollar companies get out of paying taxes is to be based in whatever country offers the best rates which is of course not America.

They can still be taxed for the business they do in America.

[ltfred]

Sept 12, 2011 4:35:32 GMT -5 Art Vandelay said:

Sept 12, 2011 2:21:37 GMT -5 sylvana said:

How would one close those loopholes? To my understanding the way those multi-billion dollar companies get out of paying taxes is to be based in whatever country offers the best rates which is of course not America.

They can still be taxed for the business they do in America.

Presumably buisnesses run those countries, though.

The problem is that buisness, particularly manufacturing industry, can threaten to piss off overseas if you ask them to pay taxes, or fail to provide sufficient bribes. The IMF free trade-worship prevents countries from protecting new industries, so existing manufacturing companies are the only ones that can exist- they have an effective monopoly. So they can name their price.

What should be done is a) free trade should be ended in the third world and scaled back in the first, b) there should be an international agreement on taxes, wages, conditions and enviromental laws in order to end the Race to the Bottom and c) the IMF's free trade mandate should be replaced with a global full employment and sustainable development mandate, as Keynes wanted in 1944.

[Art Vandelay]

Sept 12, 2011 5:50:19 GMT -5 ltfred said:

Sept 12, 2011 4:35:32 GMT -5 Art Vandelay said:

They can still be taxed for the business they do in America.

Presumably buisnesses run those countries, though.

The problem is that buisness, particularly manufacturing industry, can threaten to piss off overseas if you ask them to pay taxes, or fail to provide sufficient bribes. The IMF free trade-worship prevents countries from protecting new industries, so existing manufacturing companies are the only ones that can exist- they have an effective monopoly. So they can name their price.

What should be done is a) free trade should be ended in the third world and scaled back in the first, b) there should be an international agreement on taxes, wages, conditions and enviromental laws in order to end the Race to the Bottom and c) the IMF's free trade mandate should be replaced with a global full employment and sustainable development mandate, as Keynes wanted in 1944.

Good luck getting the likes of China and India to sign up to such an international agreement. The race to the bottom is what their economies are based on. It would be nice but it's never going to happen, even if there was the political will in the west.

Probably the best solution would be to add another, higher tax bracket for the upper classes and hit it with a massive tax. Largely because that's where a good chunk of company profits will end up and while businesses can shift overseas to avoid taxes, I doubt wealthy individuals will be willing to move to a another, culturally alien country just to avoid taxes.

[the sandman]

the real problem is that no one has ever figured out how to deal with multi-national, diffuse corporations who can shift profits and revenues around the world at will using tricks so well known they have cute little names like "The Cayman Slip," "Project Valiha," and "The Irish Twist."

How do you tax a company whose "official" base of operations is in a foreign nation so corrupt they don't even pretend to have fair elections? How do you find the money in a world where net-based finance means money doesn't even really exist in physical space anymore? Contracts are signed, sealed, and paid in whatever country will charge the lowest rate, and goods are physically traded between companies in international waters.

Until we can find some way for global accountability, the world will continue to be run by the wealthiest corporations as they wish, and there's nothing we can do about it.

Good luck getting the likes of China and India to sign up to such an international agreement. The race to the bottom is what their economies are based on. It would be nice but it's never going to happen, even if there was the political will in the west.

Probably the best solution would be to add another, higher tax bracket for the upper classes and hit it with a massive tax. Largely because that's where a good chunk of company profits will end up and while businesses can shift overseas to avoid taxes, I doubt wealthy individuals will be willing to move to a another, culturally alien country just to avoid taxes.

And there's your other problem right there. Governments like China are profiting from the status quo, and will never allow it to change.

The only way to deal with this is massive taxes on capital gains. While a corporation might be willing to pull up roots and relocate to Yemen or Albania for the tax rates, most wealthy American individuals would not be quite so willing to leave the country and abandon their citizenship.

[The_L]

Sept 12, 2011 7:09:09 GMT -5 the sandman said:

the real problem is that no one has ever figured out how to deal with multi-national, diffuse corporations who can shift profits and revenues around the world at will using tricks so well known they have cute little names like "The Cayman Slip," "Project Valiha," and "The Irish Twist."

How do you tax a company whose "official" base of operations is in a foreign nation so corrupt they don't even pretend to have fair elections? How do you find the money in a world where net-based finance means money doesn't even really exist in physical space anymore? Contracts are signed, sealed, and paid in whatever country will charge the lowest rate, and goods are physically traded between companies in international waters.

Until we can find some way for global accountability, the world will continue to be run by the wealthiest corporations as they wish, and there's nothing we can do about it.

Good luck getting the likes of China and India to sign up to such an international agreement. The race to the bottom is what their economies are based on. It would be nice but it's never going to happen, even if there was the political will in the west.

Probably the best solution would be to add another, higher tax bracket for the upper classes and hit it with a massive tax. Largely because that's where a good chunk of company profits will end up and while businesses can shift overseas to avoid taxes, I doubt wealthy individuals will be willing to move to a another, culturally alien country just to avoid taxes.

And there's your other problem right there. Governments like China are profiting from the status quo, and will never allow it to change.

The only way to deal with this is massive taxes on capital gains. While a corporation might be willing to pull up roots and relocate to Yemen or Albania for the tax rates, most wealthy American individuals would not be quite so willing to leave the country and abandon their citizenship.

This. Tax capital gains OUT THE ASS. Since only the wealthy can afford to invest the amounts that would give massive returns, there isn't really much of a downside here.

[the sandman]

An increase on Capital Gains would be a very effective way to tax only the wealthy.

[Vene]

I think taxing stock transactions is also a good way to go. Especially when you have transactions that take milliseconds and 70% of stocks are held for an average of 11 seconds.

By all means, go for capital gains, but I think we can also benefit from taxing people who make obscene amounts of money by moving around other people's money and provide a reason for them to make long term investment over short term stock bouncing.

[Ranger Joe]

Sept 10, 2011 21:23:29 GMT -5 the sandman said:

Here's a fun fact!

What do General Electric, American Electric, DuPont, Verizon, Boeing, Wells Fargo, FedEx, Honeywell, IBM, Yahoo, United Tech, and Exxon Mobile all have in common?

These multi-billion dollar US corporations pay an effective US Federal tax rate of NEGATIVE 1.5%. That's right, they not only pay no taxes at all, they get money FROM taxpayers.

Wow. I guess Perry and Bachman and all the other Republican candidates are right, aren't they? Corporations in the US are super overtaxed and need lower rates. I swear to God, Zeus, and any other being that may be listening, these motherfuckers are going to be the first up against the wall when the revolution comes. If these asshole corporations had actually PAID the Federal taxes they should have, rather than tap-dancing through the tax code using the special loopholes put in place specially for them, Federal revenues would have been a full 12% higher than they were.

Don't you love capitalism? Why don't you love capitalism? It's for the little guy!! What are you? Some kind of commie shit bag?

.................

I became nauseated just typing the above...

[styphon]

Democracy!

The best government money can buy!

[ltfred]

Sept 12, 2011 7:09:09 GMT -5 the sandman said:

How do you tax a company whose "official" base of operations is in a foreign nation so corrupt they don't even pretend to have fair elections.

Have the IMF set and enforce a high corporate tax rate (50% at least).