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Post by Jodie on Sept 12, 2011 15:22:25 GMT -5
Honestly, the fact that the planes were hi-jacked with box cutters frustrates me to hell. It's a goddamned box cutter. I am willing to bet both testicles and my dick (and I'm fond of all three) that if it's either get cut by a box cutter or kill this dumb fuck so he can't get to the pilot, the answer is clear. Not everybody has military training dude. |
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Post by Mlle Antéchrist on Sept 12, 2011 15:26:06 GMT -5
Honestly, the fact that the planes were hi-jacked with box cutters frustrates me to hell. It's a goddamned box cutter. I am willing to bet both testicles and my dick (and I'm fond of all three) that if it's either get cut by a box cutter or kill this dumb fuck so he can't get to the pilot, the answer is clear. In fairness, hindsight is 20/20. None of the passengers knew that the hijackers were on a suicide mission. They also had no way of knowing if they had a bomb hidden somewhere on the plane, or other weapons. Most of them would have assumed that they were being held hostage, and cooperating meant they had a better chance of getting out of it alive. The one group of passengers who did know what was happening (Flight 93) ended storming the cockpit. |
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Post by Ranger Joe on Sept 12, 2011 15:27:16 GMT -5
Honestly, the fact that the planes were hi-jacked with box cutters frustrates me to hell. It's a goddamned box cutter. I am willing to bet both testicles and my dick (and I'm fond of all three) that if it's either get cut by a box cutter or kill this dumb fuck so he can't get to the pilot, the answer is clear. Not everybody has military training dude. It's a box cutter. You don't need military training. |
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Post by Ranger Joe on Sept 12, 2011 15:29:13 GMT -5
Honestly, the fact that the planes were hi-jacked with box cutters frustrates me to hell. It's a goddamned box cutter. I am willing to bet both testicles and my dick (and I'm fond of all three) that if it's either get cut by a box cutter or kill this dumb fuck so he can't get to the pilot, the answer is clear. In fairness, hindsight is 20/20. None of the passengers knew that the hijackers were on a suicide mission. They also had no way of knowing if they had a bomb hidden somewhere on the plane, or other weapons. Most of them would have assumed that they were being held hostage, and cooperating meant they had a better chance of getting out of it alive. The one group of passengers who did know what was happening (Flight 93) ended storming the cockpit. I can see this point, but the moment they tried something with the cockpit, which generally isn't done in hostage situations like that...especially when they remove the pilots and take over the plane...I dunno. I guess I would have had to have been there to know the scene. Then again, I'm a bit of a spiteful bastard and would rather crash into the ground at 3g's while choking the shit out of the guy than deal with their nonsense. |
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Post by Shane for Wax on Sept 12, 2011 15:37:03 GMT -5
Honestly, the fact that the planes were hi-jacked with box cutters frustrates me to hell. It's a goddamned box cutter. I am willing to bet both testicles and my dick (and I'm fond of all three) that if it's either get cut by a box cutter or kill this dumb fuck so he can't get to the pilot, the answer is clear. You don't always know if that's the only 'weapon' they have on them. For all anyone could know the box cutter was just an opening salvo in a full arsenal. The average person is frightened by anything that can do them harm. Especially if they have no idea if the 'goddamned box cutter' is a distraction for something worse--- like a bomb. |
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Post by Ranger Joe on Sept 12, 2011 15:41:14 GMT -5
Honestly, the fact that the planes were hi-jacked with box cutters frustrates me to hell. It's a goddamned box cutter. I am willing to bet both testicles and my dick (and I'm fond of all three) that if it's either get cut by a box cutter or kill this dumb fuck so he can't get to the pilot, the answer is clear. You don't always know if that's the only 'weapon' they have on them. For all anyone could know the box cutter was just an opening salvo in a full arsenal. The average person is frightened by anything that can do them harm. Especially if they have no idea if the 'goddamned box cutter' is a distraction for something worse--- like a bomb. I'd rather die finding out  |
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Post by Shane for Wax on Sept 12, 2011 15:43:16 GMT -5
Yeah and then find out it's a dead man switch they have and then you end up killing everyone else. Flight 93 took a risk doing what they did.
I just don't think it's fair of you to pass judgment on others (effectively calling them cowards).
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Post by Mlle Antéchrist on Sept 12, 2011 15:50:37 GMT -5
One would expect the hijackers to try to gain access to the cockpit, given that they'd want control over everything the plane was doing. It might have been unusual for them to fly it themselves instead of ordering the captain to take them somewhere, but it certainly isn't beyond the realm of reason for a hostage taker to have some flight training.
In any case, it's doubtful that most of the passengers knew exactly what was going on in the cockpit (the crew probably wouldn't have passed on too much information, lest they risk passengers panicking), and given that they were still living with a pre-9/11 mentality, they would have figured that the hijackers themselves wanted to get out of it alive -- people weren't as familiar with suicide terrorism at the time. I can almost guarantee that the terrorists didn't share the details of their plans. They needed the passengers to believe that they had a chance of survival if they cooperated. Hell, I wouldn't be shocked if they had lied and told them that no one would get hurt so long as no one tried anything.
You would rather die fighting, but it's kind of unfair to take that risk on behalf of the rest of the passengers. Like Shane said, they didn't know whether or not there was a bomb on board (for all we know, the hijackers might have even claimed to have one).
Yeah. None of us can truly understand the situation without having been there ourselves. We're talking about a group of frightened people who had no clue about what was really happening. I get that it's frustrating that a few men can take control of an airplane with nothing more than box cutters, but I can't fault any of the victims for how they reacted. What they went through is so beyond the scope of anything most of us have dealt with that we have zero basis of comparison.
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Post by Ranger Joe on Sept 12, 2011 16:22:17 GMT -5
Yeah and then find out it's a dead man switch they have and then you end up killing everyone else. Flight 93 took a risk doing what they did. I just don't think it's fair of you to pass judgment on others (effectively calling them cowards). That right there is putting words in my mouth. I never once called them cowards. Sometimes someone has to do something because doing nothing makes things worse. As Anti-Christ said, it's all hindsight. I definitely at no point suggested that they were cowards. If you're in the air and the pilot gets removed from the cockpit and replaced with a madman who just took over the plane, would you consider that justification for the risk? To be fair, we never had anything like that before, so people weren't expecting it. Guess what would happen if they tried it now? |
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Post by rookie on Sept 12, 2011 16:28:37 GMT -5
I was stationed in Germany at the time. I remember having to run out to get a part for a truck. When I got back, there was nobody in the bays. My first thoughts were along the lines of "Those bastards got a half day and nobody bothered to tell me?!" I went into our office and saw everyone huddled around the computer. This wasn't all that unusual. Tuesdays were the days we looked up movies that were coming out in the States so we could figure out what to see six months later when they debuted in English in Germany. So I elbowed my way toward the computer screen. I saw the planes fly into the towers. I said "Aw shit! That looks AWESOME!! What is this?" Someone told me CNN. I replied that it was a dumb name, and who was in it? My sergeant pointed to the address bar (CNN.com). So, I watched it again and asked what's going on? Then the phone started ringing.
Joe, while I have no doubt in my mind that you would have seriously kicked ass had you been on any of the planes, to assume everyone else would have done the same, or even were capable of the same, is a bit, what word am I looking for? Not naive, not exactly wrong. For example, ten years ago I would have been right there with you tackling and headbutting and generally causing melee. But now, in my thirties with kids and such, I don't know. Hell, I'm sure you can look at people from both Basic and friends from back from the mean streets of Frederick who would lock up. Or cry. Or whatever reaction, not jump immediately in with no knowledge or forethought. It's a bit unreasonable. (That's the word I was looking for.) Anyways, food for thought.
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Post by Shane for Wax on Sept 12, 2011 16:31:40 GMT -5
I said effectively not that you actually said it. Your tone suggests a lot.
There were hijackings pre-9/11. We just didn't suspect it would happen here.
I do know that my dad and myself have always been hyper-vigilant on planes and elsewhere. even before 9/11.
ETA: Rookie hit it on the head.
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Post by Ranger Joe on Sept 12, 2011 16:32:03 GMT -5
I was stationed in Germany at the time. I remember having to run out to get a part for a truck. When I got back, there was nobody in the bays. My first thoughts were along the lines of "Those bastards got a half day and nobody bothered to tell me?!" I went into our office and saw everyone huddled around the computer. This wasn't all that unusual. Tuesdays were the days we looked up movies that were coming out in the States so we could figure out what to see six months later when they debuted in English in Germany. So I elbowed my way toward the computer screen. I saw the planes fly into the towers. I said "Aw shit! That looks AWESOME!! What is this?" Someone told me CNN. I replied that it was a dumb name, and who was in it? My sergeant pointed to the address bar (CNN.com). So, I watched it again and asked what's going on? Then the phone started ringing. Joe, while I have no doubt in my mind that you would have seriously kicked ass had you been on any of the planes, to assume everyone else would have done the same, or even were capable of the same, is a bit, what word am I looking for? Not naive, not exactly wrong. For example, ten years ago I would have been right there with you tackling and headbutting and generally causing melee. But now, in my thirties with kids and such, I don't know. Hell, I'm sure you can look at people from both Basic and friends from back from the mean streets of Frederick who would lock up. Or cry. Or whatever reaction, not jump immediately in with no knowledge or forethought. It's a bit unreasonable. (That's the word I was looking for.) Anyways, food for thought. I can see your point. I will give ya that. (LULZ at Mean Streets of Frederick) |
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Post by Ranger Joe on Sept 12, 2011 16:32:28 GMT -5
I said effectively not that you actually said it. Your tone suggests a lot. There were hijackings pre-9/11. We just didn't suspect it would happen here. I do know that my dad and myself have always been hyper-vigilant on planes and elsewhere. even before 9/11. I don't really have a tone, to clarify on this one. I can come across direct and that make me sound like an asshole, but I'm just saying whats on my mind. **edited for better wording, sorry if there was confusion** |
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Post by Shane for Wax on Sept 12, 2011 16:35:28 GMT -5
Yeah. You do have a tone. You may not think you do but you do. But whatever, I'm tired of arguing.
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Post by ltfred on Sept 12, 2011 16:56:25 GMT -5
If there is anyone who earned the Medal of Honour it is him (he, of course, did not get it). Because, while his actions were valiant, they don't meet the requirements for the issue of the Medal of Honor. The guy was ::definitely:: in the right, but I wouldn't call his actions heroic. Praiseworthy? Yes. Morally strong? Definitely. The deal is "conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his or her life above and beyond the call of duty while engaged in an action against an enemy of the United States". Eugh, 'intrepidity'. I'd say that he was 'gallant', which is the 'ability to do things which one finds frightening.' Walking towards dozens of armed, crazed mass-murderers and then talking them down from continuing their rapage of terror is pretty frightening, but he did it- and he did it without orders, on his own initiative, against all trainin and instinct. He certainly risked his life. Yet again, crazed mass murderers with guns. He wasn't engaged directly against enemies of the United States, although I think Calley and Medina acted in a way that should be regarded as fighting against humanity. But whatever. |
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