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Post by anon87311 on Sept 29, 2011 19:14:09 GMT -5
l with an all-knowing god? are they that brainwashed, or do they not have the capability to understand logic?
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Post by Code Monkey on Sept 29, 2011 19:42:07 GMT -5
All free will means is that God doesn't force you to do something. He just knows what you're going to do before you do it. Still doesn't really make any sense, though. It's best if you don't look into it too much.
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Post by N. De Plume on Sept 29, 2011 20:12:56 GMT -5
All free will means is that God doesn't force you to do something. He just knows what you're going to do before you do it. Still doesn't really make any sense, though. It's best if you don't look into it too much. God might not personally force you, but if he knows what you are going to do, then that means there is some sort of destiny and you have no real choice.
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Post by John E on Sept 29, 2011 22:58:34 GMT -5
The problem is that if God is both all knowing AND all powerful, he knew exactly what was going to happen when he created the universe, that if he put the molecules and atoms and quarks and such just so that the everything was going to turn out exactly the way it has and that we all would make exactly the choices that we have. He had the power to create the universe with a different set of starting conditions and knew exactly how each set would play out and he chose this one.
Thus everything that ever happened and ever will happen was specifically and intentionally chosen by God. Nothing happens that God doesn't want to happen, and every chose you make is the choice God wants you to make.
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Post by Thejebusfire on Sept 29, 2011 23:15:48 GMT -5
If the consequence to said choice is you burning in hell for eternity, then it really isnt "free will."
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Post by Art Vandelay on Sept 30, 2011 0:24:35 GMT -5
The problem is that if God is both all knowing AND all powerful, he knew exactly what was going to happen when he created the universe, that if he put the molecules and atoms and quarks and such just so that the everything was going to turn out exactly the way it has and that we all would make exactly the choices that we have. He had the power to create the universe with a different set of starting conditions and knew exactly how each set would play out and he chose this one. Thus everything that ever happened and ever will happen was specifically and intentionally chosen by God. Nothing happens that God doesn't want to happen, and every chose you make is the choice God wants you to make. Pretty much this. It's amazing how even moderate Christians who're otherwise perfectly capable of showing an IQ above room temperature don't seem to understand that free will and omnipotence (which includes omniscience, naturally) are simple incompatible.
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Post by Napoleon the Clown on Sept 30, 2011 1:29:56 GMT -5
The excuse used is that God's Logic is greater than Man's Logic. AKA "We can't get out of this so we're just gonna make shit up rather than accept that our beliefs are wrong."
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Post by m52nickerson on Sept 30, 2011 7:33:38 GMT -5
If the consequence to said choice is you burning in hell for eternity, then it really isnt "free will." I don't see that, having free will, or even free choice does not mean there can't be consequences for your actions. For me I can understand how God could be all knowing and man still have free will. Just because he knows what choice you will make does not mean you did not have that choice. The problem with that then becomes that God knows when people are going to do harm to others. If he has the power to stop those things and does not he can't be considered good. Just as Epicurus stated... Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
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Post by Art Vandelay on Sept 30, 2011 7:43:21 GMT -5
For me I can understand how God could be all knowing and man still have free will. Just because he knows what choice you will make does not mean you did not have that choice. Err, yes it does actually. If he knows what choices people will make, than there can be no deviation from those choices and as such there is no real "choice" in the first place. While you could argue we have free will, just 0 opportunity to use it, that would simply be silly (more so).
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Post by m52nickerson on Sept 30, 2011 7:59:33 GMT -5
[quote author=sgtsnoodles board=rp thread=9979 post=341369 time=1317386601Err, yes it does actually. If he knows what choices people will make, than there can be no deviation from those choices and as such there is no real "choice" in the first place.
While you could argue we have free will, just 0 opportunity to use it, that would simply be silly (more so).[/quote]
Just because God knows what choice you will make, does not mean you did not make that choice. That is what free will is, you making the choice, not someone else.
Right now you could choose to smash you computer to bits, or stick a fork in a light socket, but you won't. That does not mean you don't have those choice, just that you don't make them.
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Post by Art Vandelay on Sept 30, 2011 8:07:02 GMT -5
Just because God knows what choice you will make, does not mean you did not make that choice. That is what free will is, you making the choice, not someone else. Can I make a different choice to the one God knows I'll make? Because if not than it's not really a choice (or God's not really all-powerful). Right now you could choose to smash you computer to bits, or stick a fork in a light socket, but you won't. That does not mean you don't have those choice, just that you don't make them. But it's still a choice because nobody is 100% certain I won't because it's not guaranteed that I wont (hence being a choice). If it were set in stone (like an all-powerful being knew for certain I'm going to act in such a way), than it wouldn't in reality be a choice because it would be impossible to take any different action.
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Post by m52nickerson on Sept 30, 2011 8:29:02 GMT -5
Can I make a different choice to the one God knows I'll make? Because if not than it's not really a choice (or God's not really all-powerful). Yes you could, but you won't. But it's still a choice because nobody is 100% certain I won't because it's not guaranteed that I wont (hence being a choice). If it were set in stone (like an all-powerful being knew for certain I'm going to act in such a way), than it wouldn't in reality be a choice because it would be impossible to take any different action. Have the knowledge of what you will do does not remove the choice, nor does it force you into a certain choice. Again, it is not impossible for you to make different choice, it just will not happen. I know that sounds like a you are then locked it, but not really. Let say you built a computer program that could predict the winners and losers of football matches with 100% accuracy. That would not mean that the games were predetermined. Just that the outcomes could be predicted. There is a difference between predicting the future and predetermining it.
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Post by Art Vandelay on Sept 30, 2011 8:39:16 GMT -5
Yes you could, but you won't. In other words, no. By definition if something has 0% probability of occurring, than it is impossible. Let say you built a computer program that could predict the winners and losers of football matches with 100% accuracy. That would not mean that the games were predetermined. Just that the outcomes could be predicted. There is a difference between predicting the future and predetermining it. If the outcome was guaranteed 100%, than it would be. That is not a prediction, as by definition a prediction involves uncertainty. Besides, there's not even any pretence of God merely predicting the future, he outright knows what will happen. So yes, it is very much predetermined.
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Post by m52nickerson on Sept 30, 2011 9:11:05 GMT -5
In other words, no. By definition if something has 0% probability of occurring, than it is impossible. Probability speaks to random events, not decisions. Even within a random event, if one could predict an outcome it does not mean the probability becomes 0% since you can't know if the prediction is right before the event takes place. There is a difference between predicting the future and predetermining it. [/quote] If the outcome was guaranteed 100%, than it would be. That is not a prediction, as by definition a prediction involves uncertainty. Besides, there's not even any pretense of God merely predicting the future, he outright knows what will happen. So yes, it is very much predetermined. Really, how is the computer affecting the outcome of the match? It's not, it is merely predicting the outcome. Predicting with 100% certainty, or knowing, same difference. They are not the same as predetermined. Predetermined would be controlling the outcome. God is not doing that.
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Post by Dragon Zachski on Sept 30, 2011 9:18:28 GMT -5
Does being omniscient mean seeing a linear future or seeing all possible futures?
Just something to add to the discussion to ponder about.
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