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Post by ironbite on Jun 3, 2009 0:25:31 GMT -5
Here's my question ya little fart
Ironbite-the hell do get off thinking you know exactly what God is thinking?
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Post by Undecided on Jun 3, 2009 1:09:45 GMT -5
You might be surprised to know that many Christians support abortion, in fact the doctor that was recently murdered was a practicing Christian and apparently his murderer was too. All that is just to explain that you can ask two Christians these questions and you will likely get two different answers. I am entirely unsurprised, being friends with Christians of both the pro-life and the pro-choice inclination. Just know this, many call themselves Christians but few really are. The people that would make such accusations are more than likely not walking in faith. I am afraid that we have different definitions of Christian: for me, a Christian is a person who believes in the divinity of Jesus Christ as the Son of God and Messiah; Christian beliefs around the world vary greatly. More to the point, a Christian who acts in an uncouth, unbecoming, or even a sinful manner is still a Christian (even if a 'bad' one), and should not be described as otherwise simply because he or she has unseemly characteristics. Abortion is particularly disturbing though. It's horrific. Killing a baby is unspeakably inhumane. This is a particularly sensitive subject to us parents. A fetus is human life, but when is it a baby and a person? Most people, I think, would say that there is definitely no person before conception, and that there is definitely a person after birth, but it's not really apparent where it becomes a person in between zero and nine months. There is a parable in the Bible called the Parable of the Fig Tree. It says that once the tree starts putting off leaves, that "this generation shall not pass" until all these things are fulfilled. There are many other scriptural references to the Fig Tree being Israel, and the regathering of the Jews to Israel is the tree putting out leaves. This happened in 1948 (Israel was reestablished as a country). The length of a generation is unknown, but in the Psalms it references 70 to 80 years. So it's widely believed that the Rapture and Tribulation will occur within that window (by 2018 to 2028). When biblical interpretation has yielded multiple possible dates for the Rapture, some of which have been disproven by the test of time, is there not every reason for scepticism?
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Post by incognito on Jun 3, 2009 3:36:39 GMT -5
If god came, and said "there is no god," would you believe him?
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Post by dasfuchs on Jun 3, 2009 5:44:31 GMT -5
If god came, and said "there is no god," would you believe him? Better question, if god came and said he was god, would you believe him?
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Post by Maryland Bear on Jun 3, 2009 7:00:10 GMT -5
Are you aware that: - Martin Luther (the Protestant Reformation guy, not Martin Luther King) and other early Church fathers opposed including Revelation as a canonical book of the Bible?
- when it was decided Revelation would be included in the Bible, it was with the agreement that it would not be taught as prophecy?
- the very idea of a "rapture" is a relatively recent edition to Christian beliefs, probably under 300 years old, and a pre-Millenial rapture is an even newer idea?
- the "John" that wrote Revelation was probably not the John who wrote the Gospel According to John? (one wrote in excellent Greek, the other wrote rather poor Greek)
- belief in the rapture is not a common Christian belief? Most churches don't teach it, and even among those that do teach it, its not to the point of obsession.
- its the Book of Revelation, not Revelations? (Actually, a lot of the RR crowd probably does know that. But its a very common mistake.)
First, thanks for coming into what must seem like a virtual lion's den to you (I'm a bear, not a lion, though, but I'm more of the teddy bear kind) and respectfully answering our questions. I may disagree with you on a whole host of issues, but I'll respect you for being willing to talk. I'd argue that is does. This is Martin Luther we're talking about, the man who probably had the greatest influence on Christianity since the Apostle Paul. I'll grant, he had some curious views, like being a nasty anti-Semite, but the man knew something about Christianity. Well, considering my thoughts on Revelation border on "its the ravings of a borderline madman that don't belong in the Bible", saying Revelation just sums it all up doesn't score any points with me. But as far as references to Christ's return go.... Christ himself told the disciples "some of you will see my return". (I'm wildly paraphrasing there, of course.) Unless there's a 2000 year old man hiding in a cave somewhere around Jerusalem, either - Christ was lying
- At least some of the prophecies about Christ's return are later additions to the Bible
- The return of Christ is metaphorical
The second and third are my choices. Even if I could get to the RR forums, videos are blocked at my job, but, from your list, there were about 400 years of preaching the Rapture shortly after the Crucifixion, then a gap of about twelve centuries, then it picked up again during the 17th century. Did the entire Christian community forget about it? Or, more likely in my opinion, did 1200 years or so of Christians decide "Christ may come back someday, but that's not supposed to be our focus"? Fair enough, but that wasn't really what I meant. My point was that, as a Christian, even if I accepted end-time prophecies (I don't; at most I believe "Christ is coming back someday, but only He knows when"), I think an extreme focus on the end of the world takes away from what I think is our primary duty as Christians -- to make the world a better place, the whole "whatever you do unto the last and least of these" thing.
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Post by Maryland Bear on Jun 3, 2009 7:54:24 GMT -5
BananaHurricane asked me to come over and look at these questions, so here I am. I'll answer a few of these, but first let me say that many of the questions are asked as if every Christian shares the exact same views. As with everything in life, there are hardly two people that do indeed share the same views. You might be surprised to know that many Christians support abortion, in fact the doctor that was recently murdered was a practicing Christian and apparently his murderer was too. All that is just to explain that you can ask two Christians these questions and you will likely get two different answers. As a liberal/progressive Christian myself, I realize that there is certainly not a uniformity of belief among Christians. (In fact, I think you could argue that Christianity is the most factionalized of the world religions.) However, conservative Christianity is the public face of the faith in America today. The only prominent liberals known primarily for their faith are generally politically active African-American ministers, like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton (and one of the last times Jackson got much attention, he was taking the conservative side during the Terry Schiavo brouhaha.) There's also Gene Robinson, but he only gets noted because of the possibility of a schism in the Episcopal Church. (The appointment of a bishop is otherwise generally only noted in the "Religion" sections of the local or perhaps regional media. Its certainly not national news.) There are some very gifted liberal Christian thinkers, like Jim Wallis, Wallis's Sojourners organization, and C. Welton Geddy (sp?). But its the conservatives who get practically all the attention. Yes, your scandals like Ted Haggard get covered, too, but when the "liberal" media wants "the Christian view", its your side they look to. And even among conservative Christians, there's a tendency to assume "almost every Christian thinks like us". Just look at some of the responses to the Tiller murder, that boiled down to "that abortionist went to church?" My point, after some rambling, is this: no, there is not a uniformity of belief among Christians. But its not surprising that outsiders think there is a uniformity of viewpoints, and that that the conservative viewpoint represents most Christians.
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Post by secularskeptic on Jun 3, 2009 8:15:07 GMT -5
My questions for a RR member: Why am I supposed to take seriously anything that you say when I tell you that I was once a fundamentalist Christian myself and you call me a liar by claiming that I could not have been or I wouldn't have turned away from your God? Why am I supposed to take anything you say seriously when I go to your board and see that as an atheist I am called stupid, I am the reason the country is in horrible shape, I deserve to burn forever, etc. ? If I called you those things would you take me seriously? Why do you continually talk on the RR board about how certain behaviors on the part of Christians "hurt your witness" and then, on the internet in front of the whole world, call people liars, idiots, morons, and all the other names that atheists are called there. You do not know me personally, but yet you throw me into a category and judge me. You don't think that "hurts your witness" ?? I can't recall reading anything to that effect on RR (that atheists are somehow responsible for the country, that they should burn, etc.) We've all played a part in the downfall of our country. A lot of people love to blame Obama, and while his rampant money spending is certainly going to cause problems down the road it's narrow-sighted to lay the blame at one administration's doorstep. These problems have been many, many years in the making. I have no idea whether you're a liar or not and certainly wouldn't call you one on the basis of you're being an atheist. I never, ever call anyone an idiot or a moron as it's insulting. Just know this, many call themselves Christians but few really are. The people that would make such accusations are more than likely not walking in faith. If you can't "recall reading anything to that effect on RR" then you haven't been reading your own board. I am not saying that you personally have done it, I don't know your name over there so I have no idea if you have or not. This is what I DO know: As an atheist, I took one last look at Christianity and reconsidered becoming a Christian again after I left the faith. I was raised in a fundy home with the same rapture mindset that prevails on your board. I went to your board looking for help and answers and simply for being an atheist was called names, yelled at and generally treated like shit by the so-called Christians that claim to love atheists so much. That was the final straw. I went to Christians looking for help and got it thrown back in face. I slammed the door on your religion and will never, ever look back. The kind of vile treatment I got on your board was absolutely 100% unwarranted. Basically, they unloaded on me personally all of the frustrations and vileness that they feel towards atheists in general and never even once looked at me as an individual human being that was reconsidering their faith. You guys should be proud of yourself. Someone came to you who might have reconsidered your faith, and you played a major role in making them turn away from it (again) and close the door completely on it. Way to "witness"! This has been a good while ago, and I'm actually thankful to the "Christians" on your board for shredding what faith I had left in Christianity. You said: "Just know this, many call themselves Christians but few really are. The people that would make such accusations are more than likely not walking in faith. "Then that's 99.99% of your board. Good to know, thanks for the info.
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Post by Maryland Bear on Jun 3, 2009 8:19:10 GMT -5
Or, a comic strip I've always found eloquently sums up why it bothers me so greatly that the Rapture Ready types are the public face of American Christianity:
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Post by m52nickerson on Jun 3, 2009 8:44:59 GMT -5
Here's my question ya little fart Ironbite-the hell do get off thinking you know exactly what God is thinking? Nice, we have someone that comes over here and post what seem to be honest answers in a respectable way and they get called a.....little fart. No wonder more visitors from fundie site don't bother to visit. First off there was no call for that insult, and second....little fart....really......what are you in 1st grade. m52nickerson - thinks some people should think 3-4 time before posting.....and then don't.
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Post by secularskeptic on Jun 3, 2009 9:25:29 GMT -5
3rd point- common misconception. I'm not sure if non-members can see all the RR forums, but if you can then check out the video in this thread: rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=95125Here's a synopsis of the (known) people who preached the Rapture before Darby: Ephraim the Syrian, 320 AD Shepherd of Hermas, 150 AD Victorinus, Bishop of Petau, 270 AD Jerome, 400 AD (Dark Ages) Rev. Dolocineau? 304 Joseph Meddy, 1627 Increase Mather, 1627 Peter Giroux, 1687 John Askill, 1700 John Gill, 1748 James McKnight, 1763 Morgan Edwards, 1744 Thomas Scott, 1792 John Darby, 1830 5th point- not many RR members are obsessed over the Rapture (I fully admit that some appear to be, but they're membership is usually short-lived due to burnout). It just seems that way to you guys because all you see of us is what we post over there. We have lives outside of RR believe it or not We work, we play, we have families, we have hobbies, and we hang out on RR too. It's a small part of most of our lives, but it's the only part that you see and you draw too many conclusions from it. 6th point- yeah, I know; and yeah, it's a common mistake On the 3rd point: What difference would it make if the list was even longer? What if it was hundreds or thousands of names long? Lots and lots of people teaching fiction is still lots and lots of people teaching......fiction. This is a 5 part series on Youtube that covers why the person who made the videos thinks Jesus was wrong. The first 4 parts were okay, but the 5th part pretty much sums up the Rapture: www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwXrr3SpK2AOn the 5th point: There are always threads over there saying things like "Daddyyyyyyyyy take me home !!!" and "I can't take this world anymore, I wanna go homeeeeeeee!" Also, threads speculating about what it will be like, what will your mansion be like, what will people say when it happens, etc. Cocopea (sp?) and those that join in on threads like this sound like they just hate being alive and can't wait to die so they can get on with their fantasy. What a way to throw life back into the face of the supposed creator you believe gave it to you in the first place. On an unrelated note, I'm actually glad you are there, though. This is the first chance I've ever had to talk to anyone on that board but outside the draconian rules of said board.
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Post by souldrain on Jun 3, 2009 11:32:29 GMT -5
@ Secular Skeptic I had a very similar experience over at RR. I too was willing to reconsider my faith and gave it an honest attempt. I was treated like shit as well, with a few shining exceptions. (/wave to those who showed respect) That being said... You cannot justify turning your back on the faith of your childhood by pointing a finger at RR, you're cheating yourself of a lot and arming them with a rebuttal from the get-go. It's now all too easy for them to come in and say that you can't base your faith on people, it has to be based on god. You are placing far too much responsibility in their corner which indicates that you are either trying to guilt-trip someone (which won't work at all) or haven't truly made your own decision. There are plenty of great reasons to believe or disbelieve, and in this case I have to agree with the RR crowd before they even speak... You can't base what you believe on which side gives you cookies. (or kicks you in the shins)
@ RRvisitor Thank you for coming over and providing discourse, I know that the things over here can be extremely offensive for you and I appreciate you overcoming that to speak your mind. You have made some solid points about not all christians viewing things the same way, but I find it interesting that you also talk about the concept of a "true" Christian. In my experience, the term "true" Christian has been used to distance the church or its members from scandal or offensive behavior. Why do you think this is?
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Post by secularskeptic on Jun 3, 2009 12:25:49 GMT -5
@ Secular Skeptic I had a very similar experience over at RR. I too was willing to reconsider my faith and gave it an honest attempt. I was treated like shit as well, with a few shining exceptions. (/wave to those who showed respect) That being said... You cannot justify turning your back on the faith of your childhood by pointing a finger at RR, you're cheating yourself of a lot and arming them with a rebuttal from the get-go. It's now all too easy for them to come in and say that you can't base your faith on people, it has to be based on god. You are placing far too much responsibility in their corner which indicates that you are either trying to guilt-trip someone (which won't work at all) or haven't truly made your own decision. There are plenty of great reasons to believe or disbelieve, and in this case I have to agree with the RR crowd before they even speak... You can't base what you believe on which side gives you cookies. (or kicks you in the shins) I am not placing the sole blame or the sole responsibility on RR. They were a factor, not the complete deciding factor. Also, I am not trying to guilt trip anyone or and I have made my own decision. I related the information because it is factual and relates to the the question at hand. I only related that information which was relevant to my experiences at RR, not any of the events that caused me to doubt in the first place, not any of the education that I paid for out of my own pocket to explore the truth myself, not anything else. This is not about who "gives cookies". It is about formative experiences. My experiences at RR are only one factor in many that brought me to my decision. Using your logic, RR Visitor would be able to win me over by being nice. No chance. Also, I'm not cheating myself out of anything. My life only got better when I gave up their religion.
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Post by souldrain on Jun 3, 2009 13:36:59 GMT -5
@ Secular Skeptic I had a very similar experience over at RR. I too was willing to reconsider my faith and gave it an honest attempt. I was treated like shit as well, with a few shining exceptions. (/wave to those who showed respect) That being said... You cannot justify turning your back on the faith of your childhood by pointing a finger at RR, you're cheating yourself of a lot and arming them with a rebuttal from the get-go. It's now all too easy for them to come in and say that you can't base your faith on people, it has to be based on god. You are placing far too much responsibility in their corner which indicates that you are either trying to guilt-trip someone (which won't work at all) or haven't truly made your own decision. There are plenty of great reasons to believe or disbelieve, and in this case I have to agree with the RR crowd before they even speak... You can't base what you believe on which side gives you cookies. (or kicks you in the shins) I am not placing the sole blame or the sole responsibility on RR. They were a factor, not the complete deciding factor. Also, I am not trying to guilt trip anyone or and I have made my own decision. I related the information because it is factual and relates to the the question at hand. I only related that information which was relevant to my experiences at RR, not any of the events that caused me to doubt in the first place, not any of the education that I paid for out of my own pocket to explore the truth myself, not anything else. This is not about who "gives cookies". It is about formative experiences. My experiences at RR are only one factor in many that brought me to my decision. Using your logic, RR Visitor would be able to win me over by being nice. No chance. Also, I'm not cheating myself out of anything. My life only got better when I gave up their religion. My apologies, my previous post was a little unclear on the fact that I'm not inclined to believe you are stupid. It would be foolish of me to assume that this was the ONLY reason for your disbelief, given that you clearly stated you were giving it (to paraphrase) one last shot. Indeed, I worded my post ambiguously enough to allow for that interpretation. My bad. So, let's disregard the assumption implied in my post that this was your ONLY reason and move forward. Even if you gave RR "the last straw" you still put too much in their corner.
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Post by secularskeptic on Jun 3, 2009 15:46:04 GMT -5
I am not placing the sole blame or the sole responsibility on RR. They were a factor, not the complete deciding factor. Also, I am not trying to guilt trip anyone or and I have made my own decision. I related the information because it is factual and relates to the the question at hand. I only related that information which was relevant to my experiences at RR, not any of the events that caused me to doubt in the first place, not any of the education that I paid for out of my own pocket to explore the truth myself, not anything else. This is not about who "gives cookies". It is about formative experiences. My experiences at RR are only one factor in many that brought me to my decision. Using your logic, RR Visitor would be able to win me over by being nice. No chance. Also, I'm not cheating myself out of anything. My life only got better when I gave up their religion. My apologies, my previous post was a little unclear on the fact that I'm not inclined to believe you are stupid. It would be foolish of me to assume that this was the ONLY reason for your disbelief, given that you clearly stated you were giving it (to paraphrase) one last shot. Indeed, I worded my post ambiguously enough to allow for that interpretation. My bad. So, let's disregard the assumption implied in my post that this was your ONLY reason and move forward. Even if you gave RR "the last straw" you still put too much in their corner. No biggie. However, your opinion that "Even if you gave RR "the last straw"; you still put too much in their corner" needs to be addressed. That was the final time I went to Christians asking for help with faith/doubts. From then on, I relied on myself and my ability to reason and think logically, my ability to read scientific and philosophical texts on my own and to discern for myself what was the right thing to do. As I said before, life has been nothing but better for it.
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Post by spaniel on Jun 3, 2009 17:06:46 GMT -5
I suppose I have one question for our visitor.
Why do so many Christians insist on having media catered to them? You see it everywhere: Christian movies, Christian video games, Christian music... Why can't they just accept the non-offensive media instead of creating terrible ripoffs for themselves?
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