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Post by brendanrizzo on Dec 2, 2011 16:34:12 GMT -5
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harm_reductionYou are still misunderstanding the argument. I suspect it is due to your nationalism, but I could be wrong about why. And it might not follow that this actually is a reduction in harm and may be more damaging or a lateral move, but again, it helps to actually understand the argument. Also, it's not hypocritical to support a move that approaches equality, even if it is still most definitely not egalitarian. As I said before, it depends on if this actually is less bad than imprisoning rape victims. It's unreasonable to assume a culture will jump from imprisoning women who have been raped because it means they had extramarital sex to promoting full participation of women. If that is what you expect to happen, you're nothing more than a fanatic and a dipshit. And I don't think that you understand what I believe. I'm not a nationalist who believes that America can do no wrong. In fact, certain Americans have produced more rage in me than anyone from elsewhere. What I am opposing is the fact that the negative reaction to American fundies always goes above and beyond the negative reaction towards any other First World country. And as for the Afghanistan thing, we have no proof that this is gonna lead towards more equality. In that society, women have had to marry their rapists for thousands of years and, predictably, they are still treated as second- or even third-class citizens. (Men in that part of the word treat their livestock better than they treat their wives, for fuck's sake.) What the EU should have done was demand with the full might of America's military on its side (since we are technically still at war with Afghanistan) that the woman be released from prison without being forced to marry anyone and without being shunned for the rest of her life, and for those leaders who imprisoned her to be tried by international court. (Think Nuremberg, or what happened to Milosevic.) Have you noticed that no social progress has ever been made in the countries between Saudi Arabia and Pakistan? Gee, I wonder why... it's because we let them get away with their bullshit.
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Post by SimSim on Dec 2, 2011 17:10:47 GMT -5
Fuck their culture. Seriously just fuck them. That's not really fair to them. There are negative and positive aspects to all cultures, pointing out and having issues with the negative aspects is fine. But condemning the entire culture is wrong.
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Post by anti-nonsense on Dec 2, 2011 17:16:57 GMT -5
I'd rather be in jail then forced to marry somebody who raped me personally, although mind you this is a third world country we're talking about, their jails are probably really horrible.
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Kali
Junior Member
Posts: 68
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Post by Kali on Dec 2, 2011 17:42:26 GMT -5
Brendan- Social progress has to come from within. Do you think Americans would have tolerated another country coming over in the 1950s and attacking us, destroying our cities, etc., because we treated African-Americans badly? We can do our best to fight inequality, but it's like telling your neighbor how to raise their kids. It doesn't do a whole lot of good toward changing a cultural mindset.
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Post by Dragon Zachski on Dec 2, 2011 18:00:25 GMT -5
And I don't think that you understand what I believe. I'm not a nationalist who believes that America can do no wrong. In fact, certain Americans have produced more rage in me than anyone from elsewhere. What I am opposing is the fact that the negative reaction to American fundies always goes above and beyond the negative reaction towards any other First World country. Because most of us have to LIVE in America. Proximity causes bigger reaction.
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Post by Admiral Lithp on Dec 2, 2011 18:56:32 GMT -5
I'm gonna be bold & say it's probably better to stay in jail than to live with a known abuser in a "head of the household" type situation.
Brendan, I don't think you know as much about this situation as you think you do. I've heard the "thousands of years" argument about the middle east before, & it's almost always made by someone who hasn't read a single sentence of middle east history beyond about a hundred years ago.
Also, can you take your embarrassing temper tantrum at Vene somewhere else? Is that a thing you can do?
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Post by Jodie on Dec 2, 2011 19:07:04 GMT -5
I did not see anywhere that the EU was condoning this poor woman for considering marriage to her rapist, but that they were happy she was no longer imprisoned for her non-crime.
IDK, maybe I'm dense and I missed that part?
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Post by Vene on Dec 2, 2011 19:13:11 GMT -5
I did not see anywhere that the EU was condoning this poor woman for considering marriage to her rapist, but that they were happy she was no longer imprisoned for her non-crime. IDK, maybe I'm dense and I missed that part? I think it's Brendan that's the dense one. He's on a one-man crusade to prove anti-American stereotypes right.
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Post by oftenpartisan on Dec 2, 2011 19:19:54 GMT -5
I did not see anywhere that the EU was condoning this poor woman for considering marriage to her rapist, but that they were happy she was no longer imprisoned for her non-crime. IDK, maybe I'm dense and I missed that part? That's kind of the impression I got as well
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Post by ohjohnno on Dec 4, 2011 9:29:01 GMT -5
I'm confused/curious about their moral justification for this. Do they seriously blame the woman for allowing herself to get raped? And has anything whatsoever happened to the rapist?
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Post by anti-nonsense on Dec 4, 2011 11:47:22 GMT -5
I'm confused/curious about their moral justification for this. Do they seriously blame the woman for allowing herself to get raped? And has anything whatsoever happened to the rapist? yes, they seriously blame that woman for getting raped, fundies blame the victim a lot.
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Post by brendanrizzo on Dec 4, 2011 15:41:11 GMT -5
Brendan- Social progress has to come from within. Do you think Americans would have tolerated another country coming over in the 1950s and attacking us, destroying our cities, etc., because we treated African-Americans badly? We can do our best to fight inequality, but it's like telling your neighbor how to raise their kids. It doesn't do a whole lot of good toward changing a cultural mindset. Hm. How exactly did we get Germans to stop being antisemitic, again?
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Post by SCarpelan on Dec 4, 2011 16:30:11 GMT -5
I'm confused/curious about their moral justification for this. Do they seriously blame the woman for allowing herself to get raped? And has anything whatsoever happened to the rapist? He got a two years prison sentence for having sex outside marriage. She got accused of the same thing and got ten or twelve years if I remember right. A big reason she agreed to marry him is that her own family would otherwise probably kill her after she'd get out of prison. Brendan- Social progress has to come from within. Do you think Americans would have tolerated another country coming over in the 1950s and attacking us, destroying our cities, etc., because we treated African-Americans badly? We can do our best to fight inequality, but it's like telling your neighbor how to raise their kids. It doesn't do a whole lot of good toward changing a cultural mindset. Hm. How exactly did we get Germans to stop being antisemitic, again? The Allies removed the leaders who directed the Germans' anger and frustration towards the Jews. You cannot do that with Afghanistan because the sexism exists in the grassroots level instead of being artificially inflamed by the leadership. Edited to clarify: I know that the antisemitism existed in the grassroots level also in the Germany even before the Nazis gained power and that's why they were able to take advantage of it. It just wasn't nearly as strongly present in the culture and as accepted as the sexism in Afghanistan is. (Gaah... Trying to present oneself clearly in a foreign language even in a fairly simple situation can sometimes take a surprising amount of trouble)
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Post by brendanrizzo on Dec 4, 2011 16:41:16 GMT -5
The Allies removed the leaders who directed the Germans' anger and frustration towards the Jews. You cannot do that with Afghanistan because the sexism exists in the grassroots level instead of being artificially inflamed by the leadership. So you're basically saying that we should secretly send a bunch of Western-educated people to Afghanistan in order to extol the virtues of feminism and equality? I like the way you think. It's certainly better than my plan of "depose sexist government, depose equally-sexist successor government, depose equally-sexist successor successor government, and so on until they get the point."
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Post by SCarpelan on Dec 4, 2011 16:55:06 GMT -5
The Allies removed the leaders who directed the Germans' anger and frustration towards the Jews. You cannot do that with Afghanistan because the sexism exists in the grassroots level instead of being artificially inflamed by the leadership. So you're basically saying that we should secretly send a bunch of Western-educated people to Afghanistan in order to extol the virtues of feminism and equality? I like the way you think. It's certainly better than my plan of "depose sexist government, depose equally-sexist successor government, depose equally-sexist successor successor government, and so on until they get the point." I'm saying that there are no easy and quick solutions. In addition to diplomatic pressure to the government we can for example build schools for the girls as well as boys which will give more power to the women in the future.
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