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Post by dasfuchs on Dec 17, 2011 13:13:07 GMT -5
I honestly want to know how exactly we're going to colonize Africa in the name of "helping". Of course, the original colonialism- the explicitly exploitative kind- was done with the justification that looting the continent somehow improved it. As John Oliver put it, the only way we (the british) got away with it is they did it with a certain gentlemanly swagger in a time when the worst the report would get is a water color painting.
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xotan
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Post by xotan on Dec 17, 2011 15:49:00 GMT -5
Poor Africa. It is the victim of an abandoned colonization by European nations, borders drawn arbitrarily with no regard to the tribalism that was (and still is) more significant than lines on a map.
Since I was in my first class in school, at 4 years old I used to bring in my penny every day for the good Sisters to send 'to the missions' as it was termed in those day. Later I made contributions to organised charities. Part of what I pay in taxes goes in overseas aid to Africa. And I have little doubt that similar things are happening in many other countries. In effect money has been poured into that unfortunate continent for over 60 years of my memory. But to what avail? In effect, Africa is a money pit. Where have all my pennies gone to? Where has all my tax-aid gone to? It is valid to ask where have the vast sums gone that they have produced so little effect in such a long time, and why the TV advertisements are still asking for more.
A tribal society is not in any way as sofisticated in its polity as a developed western country. This is something that has led to the deterioration of what little of worth that was left by the colonists, viz things like the railways. They were never maintained. Many were abandoned, and people reverted to walking. Some still continue,operating in a hopelessly inefficient way and quite undependable. Likewise with roads. Many of the 'European' roads returned to being tracks that are only negotiable in the dry season. A more sinister development was the coming to power of leaders/dictators such as Mugabe; nor must I forget the criminal and dangerous anti-gay campaign in Uganda. Just the tip of the iceberg (hardly an apposite metaphor in Africa!)
I would maintain that the effects of colonization are still being maintained by the support that Africa receives from outside. Aid is, in fact, a political tool.
Now I come to the hard part of my argument, and it is not one that I find in any way palatable. Most reluctantly I have come to the conclusion that the only way for Africa to emerge from the shadow of colonialism and dictators is for outsiders to leave the continent to get on with its own affairs in its own way. I have no illusions that this will mean that countless people will die, but those who rule will have to face up to their own people without the cushion of the favour of the west and the opportunicty to line their pockets from diverted funds that still pour in. Aid is not the answer for those countless are still dying - even as I write. It is only part of the problem - the part that enables other parts to continue. It will never provide the stability and work and self-help ethic that is required if Africa is to stand proud on it own.
I'll probably be stoned for this, but before you cast the first one, let's hear your solution.
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Post by Old Viking on Dec 17, 2011 16:05:31 GMT -5
My vote would depend on whether I'm to be a colonizer or a colonizee.
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Post by ltfred on Dec 17, 2011 20:54:11 GMT -5
Poor Africa. It is the victim of an abandoned colonization by European nations, borders drawn arbitrarily with no regard to the tribalism that was (and still is) more significant than lines on a map. No, it isn't. This is wrong. Africa is the victim of a continuing and delibertely damaging economic domination by Europe and the United States. The policies foisted on them, known as the washington consensus, do not work- this is the problem, not minor regional problems with imperfect democracy or war, or a lack of foreign aid or foreign direct investment. After all, Europe developed with corrupt, authoritarian dictatorships that were constantly at war, had ethnic and religious problems using only the protectionist development model. The evidence suggests that the substance to development is an effective protection of infant secondary industry. The rest is just icing. This is not even slightly true. The flow of net foreign aid goes from Africa to Europe and the United States, billions of dollars every year. The US recieves foreign aid through debt accured by US-sponsored dictators that the IMF now pretends that the victims of those dictators owe. In reality, the US owes the Third world that money, since pet American leaders accrued it in order to oppress their citizens. This number is perhaps quadruple the enire global foreign aid budget, annually. This is essentially charity, paid from the poorest in the world to the richest. If there were such thing as foreign aid, and if it had been poured into the Third world to no avail, you might argue that it had failed. However, monetary chariable aid to poor natioons has never been tried. Bullshit. There's no evidence that culture has any impact on economic development, rather the process goes the opposite direction. Economic development effects culture. And a massive increase in life expectency. Or US/Britain-sponsored (much worse) dictators like Idi Amin, Robert Sese Seko and so on. I would argue that colonialism is still beig maintained through the debt the IMF pretends the Third world owes the First. They use this to leverage policy away from proven models and towards ineffective ones. Absolutely. Do no harm: if Europeans and Americans ceased doing harm with the justification of doing good, this would help. Doing nothin is better than doing ill. But doing good would be better than nothing. This is bullshit. Africans have far more work-ethic and entrepreneurship than any westerner- their problem is a lack of factories.
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Post by devilschaplain2 on Dec 18, 2011 1:36:12 GMT -5
Did we just get a hit-and-run white supremacist troll?
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Post by Art Vandelay on Dec 18, 2011 2:18:41 GMT -5
This is bullshit. Africans have far more work-ethic and entrepreneurship than any westerner- And you're basing this on..?
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Post by ltfred on Dec 18, 2011 2:43:40 GMT -5
This is bullshit. Africans have far more work-ethic and entrepreneurship than any westerner- And you're basing this on..? Africans have to work harder, and to improvise more, just to survive. The average western entrepreneur is building on a century of technological advancement; in the South, you start from the beginning.
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Post by Art Vandelay on Dec 18, 2011 2:54:40 GMT -5
And you're basing this on..? Africans have to work harder, and to improvise more, just to survive. The average western entrepreneur is building on a century of technological advancement; in the South, you start from the beginning. That doesn't mean Africans as a whole are superior to Westerners in terms of work ethic and entrepreneurship. You could argue it does if there were any African businesses that were of similar size and profitability to their western competitors, and their African based assets were their most profitable and efficient (due to their employee's superior work ethic). Since this isn't the case though, it's bullshit on the level of saying all Mexicans are lazy or all black people are stupid.
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Post by ltfred on Dec 18, 2011 3:41:47 GMT -5
Africans have to work harder, and to improvise more, just to survive. The average western entrepreneur is building on a century of technological advancement; in the South, you start from the beginning. That doesn't mean Africans as a whole are superior to Westerners in terms of work ethic and entrepreneurship. You could argue it does if there were any African businesses that were of similar size and profitability to their western competitors, and their African based assets were their most profitable and efficient (due to their employee's superior work ethic). Since this isn't the case though, it's bullshit on the level of saying all Mexicans are lazy or all black people are stupid. Yeah, it does. They do more work, harder and they do it in innovative ways. There are no profiable Afrcan buisnesses (well, Anglo-American) because entrepreneurship and hardwork are far from everything. Infastructure and R and D funding are a thousand times more important.
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Post by tolpuddlemartyr on Dec 18, 2011 4:44:25 GMT -5
We already have a form of third world colonization.
It's administered by the IMF and the World Bank on behalf of bankers and it positively demands that the countries that loan money from these august institutions get no education, no health care and no hope.
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Post by Art Vandelay on Dec 18, 2011 5:03:08 GMT -5
That doesn't mean Africans as a whole are superior to Westerners in terms of work ethic and entrepreneurship. You could argue it does if there were any African businesses that were of similar size and profitability to their western competitors, and their African based assets were their most profitable and efficient (due to their employee's superior work ethic). Since this isn't the case though, it's bullshit on the level of saying all Mexicans are lazy or all black people are stupid. Yeah, it does. They do more work, harder and they do it in innovative ways. There are no profiable Afrcan buisnesses (well, Anglo-American) because entrepreneurship and hardwork are far from everything. Infastructure and R and D funding are a thousand times more important. Of course infrastructure and R&D is important, however none of what you said is proof that Africans are innately superior to Westerners in terms of work ethic and innovation. You're just assuming based on the fact that they're a lot poorer.
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xotan
Full Member
Posts: 112
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Post by xotan on Dec 18, 2011 10:58:08 GMT -5
@ Honky McCracker
I've been posting here for quite a few years. First time I've been called a troll.
As to being a white supremacist, unlikely. A portion of my resources has been given to African aid since I was a 4 year old (yes, out of pocket money as a kid).
@others
With such a strong work ethic (as has been suggested), strange how Mugabe turned a prosperous country into a financial disaster by handing farms being run by whites over to the indigenous population and generally making those of European descent want to get out of the country.
I never suggested that Africans were superior or inferior to anyone.
Where I come from is an ex-colonial European country that had to pay it's former coloniser annuities for quite a number of years, but came our the other end of that particular tunnel and prospered until the recent crash in Europe. Now my income (a pension) is being eaten away. Reason enough to query what is happening to what is still being paid on my behalf in foreign aid to Africa.
@ Itfred
Quite frankly I resent being called a liar. What I said is true. I, and all my classmates handed over our pennies every day, as did schoolchildren in all other schools across the country. That amounted to something in a year - to a lot over my school years. It will have happened in many, if not all Catholic schools across Europe too. In 1947 a penny sterling value (which is what I am talking about) was nothing a minimal as it later became in the late 1960s and later, post decimalisation.
@: Art Vandelay
the sad thing is that in many of the colonized countries, when the Europeans were getting out they left a working infrastructure which was not maintained.
@ all
The hit and run White Supremacist troll charge is thoroughly unfounded. White Supremacists (usually in the USA) are what we read about on the internet or in newspapers. Strange then how, my postings having been pretty well ignored on this board for the past five years or so, it is the current one that has drawn any attention and such offensive comment.
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Post by Vene on Dec 18, 2011 11:01:44 GMT -5
With such a strong work ethic (as has been suggested), strange how Mugabe turned a prosperous country into a financial disaster by handing farms being run by whites over to the indigenous population and generally making those of European descent want to get out of the country. I'm quite amused that you think hard work is what makes an endeavor successful.
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xotan
Full Member
Posts: 112
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Post by xotan on Dec 18, 2011 14:21:41 GMT -5
Res ipsa loquitur. Try being successful without putting in the effort.
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Post by Yla on Dec 18, 2011 14:24:09 GMT -5
The hit and run White Supremacist troll charge is thoroughly unfounded. White Supremacists (usually in the USA) are what we read about on the internet or in newspapers. Strange then how, my postings having been pretty well ignored on this board for the past five years or so, it is the current one that has drawn any attention and such offensive comment. I think that was directed at the OP.
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