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Post by cagnazzo on Sept 17, 2009 20:18:07 GMT -5
That sounds pretty much exactly like how I was raised (I had a few years of Sunday school, though, so not quite) and how I will raise my children.
Hypothetical Children. They need names.
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Post by Admiral Lithp on Sept 17, 2009 22:20:06 GMT -5
Cagnazzo 2, 3, 4, etc.
I can see both sides of the argument, & thus I have no answer.
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Post by Bluefinger on Sept 18, 2009 4:35:58 GMT -5
If I had kids, I just do it as a part of the whole package. Not to say it is all real, but really more as a sort of myth/story that goes along with the holiday. Then, you can let the kid's imagination go ahead. If they want to believe in it or not, it doesn't matter. In the end, it is just a holiday and as long as certain messages are conveyed, then I don't think there is a necessity to say Santa is real. After all, a child does not need to be told that a fairy tale was actually real in order for the child to enjoy it.
The only way one can ruin the christmas spirit is by being a complete scrooge. Though the one thing I can't stand is christmas music. DAMN, that shit annoys!
EDIT: Actual names? I don't know, but I know what names will NOT be my hypothetical child. One such name will not be: Horatio.
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Post by Tiger on Sept 18, 2009 9:17:16 GMT -5
I'm planning on adopting an older child, so I probably won't get to choose the name.
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Post by Art Vandelay on Sept 18, 2009 9:40:53 GMT -5
Childhood should have as much whimsy and magic as it possibly can, which is something that has begun to be lost (and started to produce asshole kids) That sounds an awful lot like the "you need god to be a good, moral person" argument fundies love to use. As for my view, I'm staying child free my entire life, so santa is neither here nor there for me.
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Post by Bezron on Sept 18, 2009 10:32:25 GMT -5
Childhood should have as much whimsy and magic as it possibly can, which is something that has begun to be lost (and started to produce asshole kids) That sounds an awful lot like the "you need god to be a good, moral person" argument fundies love to use. As for my view, I'm staying child free my entire life, so santa is neither here nor there for me. Meh, I'm personally that the removal of a lot of things that made childhood good for older generations, along with increasing pressure being put on kids, is one of the causes of increasing childhood afflictions like depression and obesity. [old man mode]In my day, we seriously went outside at 9am or so, played around most of the day (riding bikes, building forts, playing outside games, etc) and didn't come in until lunch time. Then back out again until dad got home. Even when mom was working, we went to the baby sitter and did the same thing. I never wore a helmet (for example) to ride my bike or skateboard until I was like 16. I've broken every extremity at least once, my collar bone, 6 -8 ribs (total), and the list goes on. Having a cast meant that I tried something that my friends didn't, and was a badge of honor. If it was raining, then we played video games or just pestered someone's parents all day. I was never pressured to be on the winning team, etc, etc, etc.[/old man mode] That's what I meant by that statement.
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Post by maanantai on Sept 18, 2009 10:53:25 GMT -5
You can tell what this thread is inspired by. I'm curious on what FSTDTer's teach ther kids. The myth is fun but finding out the truth is dissapointing. So what is it? If you (did) celebrate christmas and the giving of presents do you raise your kids believing in Santa? Why or Why not? Yes, we do celebrate yule (word which which better discribes the way it is done around here) and we give presents and do most of the fun and/delicious traditions there are included in the darkest time of the year. We will most let our kids have their fantasy and fun about "santa" including the letterwriting and maybe even visit to lappland to see THE REAL scary bearded guy IRL (if we have kids, that is) and most likely have someone being "santa" for them giving the presents on yule eve and all that stuff. Why? It's fun and games and forces kids (when they grow up) to learn logical thinking and helps with accepting the fact that not everything that adults tell you are truth. (Which is going to be important to know since my MIL is nutty fundie). Easter bunny, easter witches (and yes, they can make "easter twigs", branches of willow decorated with silkpaper and feathers and given to neighbours and relatives in exhange for candy, even that is's origins are in eastern orthodox traditions) and cock that lays the egg are there for them to believe if they want to. When it comes to the others... not so much School-aged kid would be over 7 yo in here, usually the age when blind faith in "santa" has been all gone for a while, so it would be really easy (if one wanted to be mean) to just say "you believed in "santa" too and see what happened... -someone who believed in "santa" as a kid and was half-frightened-to-death on eve when someone in scary mask and red coat came in from the door with HUGE sack of gifts in it.
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Post by captainhooker on Sept 18, 2009 11:15:14 GMT -5
That sounds an awful lot like the "you need god to be a good, moral person" argument fundies love to use. As for my view, I'm staying child free my entire life, so santa is neither here nor there for me. Meh, I'm personally that the removal of a lot of things that made childhood good for older generations, along with increasing pressure being put on kids, is one of the causes of increasing childhood afflictions like depression and obesity. There's a disconnect there, like it's ok to use your imagination, but if you dare to believe in something or even hint at a willingness to accept the unbelievable, then you've stepped over a line. I'm no dogmatist, but I believe that kind of strict delineation between the real and the imagined is clouding our 3rd eyes and really fucking us up IMO. Not to sound too knew agey about it, but life isn't binary, nor is reality conclusive - even quantum theory suggests that reality is only what we believe it to be. For that reason, idealism is important to the human spirit, especially children, who have a need to believe that there is good in things. Why not tell them the story and let them decide for themselves. You don't have to lie, just say, "I don't know...what do you think?" Kids aren't stupid - they just have better instincts for knowing when to suspend rational judgment for the sake of fun.
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Post by deusmalum on Sept 18, 2009 11:16:18 GMT -5
Cagnazzo 2, 3, 4, etc. I can see both sides of the argument, & thus I have no answer. Is...is that a reference to the first elemental archfiend from Final Fantasy 4?
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Post by Amaranth on Sept 18, 2009 11:16:43 GMT -5
This "I would never lie to my theoretical kids" attitude is funny to me. There's an enormous difference between an indoctrinating lie and a harmless fantasy that enhances the holiday atmosphere. Yeah, I can't tell you how horrible and mundane my holidays were without Santa. I grew up to be a soulless drone in a cubicle with neither imagination nor passion. Well, you misquoted me, so don't come crying to me if you don't like my obvious farce. Point being, the Santa myth is hardly necessary, any more than God is necessary to teach children stories. Also that the "it's funny" thing swings both ways. I think it's dishonest to portray it as both harmless and helpful, but maybe that's just me. But hey man, it's your kids, and everybody's got a grisgris. Whatever you do to rationalise it doesn't bother me one bit.
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Post by Amaranth on Sept 18, 2009 11:22:03 GMT -5
That sounds pretty much exactly like how I was raised (I had a few years of Sunday school, though, so not quite) and how I will raise my children. Hypothetical Children. They need names. I'm naming my first hypothetical child Zaphod (boy) or Trillian (girl) Child number two will be William or Buffy Third will be Malcom or Kylee. Fourth will be Jess or Rory. Yes, I did this looking at my book/DVD shelf.
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Post by Tiger on Sept 18, 2009 11:24:46 GMT -5
Kids aren't stupid - they just have better instincts for knowing when to suspend rational judgment for the sake of fun. That reeks of the "It's okay to believe stupid things if it makes you happy" argument that I despise so very much.
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Post by captainhooker on Sept 18, 2009 11:53:32 GMT -5
Yeah, I can't tell you how horrible and mundane my holidays were without Santa. I grew up to be a soulless drone in a cubicle with neither imagination nor passion. Didn't say it was. "Enhanced" is not a comparative adjective, just one used to describe what it does - it enhances Christmas the same way a tree or decorations does - it adds to the atmosphere. I'm not arguing one is better than the other, just that I think the attitude that it's a lie that will harm a child's trust in adults or that it's some kind of spiritually destructive irrational belief is a bit misplaced and frankly, untrue. Kids aren't stupid - they just have better instincts for knowing when to suspend rational judgment for the sake of fun. That reeks of the "It's okay to believe stupid things if it makes you happy" argument that I despise so very much. Remind me never to invite you over when I'm playing make-believe with my daughter... We're talking about children...not adults. Kids come up with a variety of beliefs and thoughts that would be stupid by adult standards. I know you don't have kids nor plan to, but as a parent, I can tell you that if I went around closing the door on every imaginative musing that my child or her friends or cousins have, they would lead a very bleak existence. In many ways, a child's exploration into his or her imagination is the genesis of his or her development of rational ability. Learning the difference between what is true and what one would like to be true is an important step for children. At least it was for me.
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Post by Rat Of Steel on Sept 18, 2009 12:17:12 GMT -5
Cagnazzo 2, 3, 4, etc. I can see both sides of the argument, & thus I have no answer. Is...is that a reference to the first elemental archfiend from Final Fantasy 4? Sorry to butt in, but... Nope. Actually, Cagnazzo is the second archfiend. The first is the Earth archfiend, Scarmiglione. Nice catch, though.
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Post by Tiger on Sept 18, 2009 12:45:26 GMT -5
That reeks of the "It's okay to believe stupid things if it makes you happy" argument that I despise so very much. Remind me never to invite you over when I'm playing make-believe with my daughter... If that's what you were referring to, then I evidently misinterpreted your meaning and retract my previous post. Make-believe (or if we're pretending to have outgrown that, role-playing) is great, harmless fun.
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