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Post by deusmalum on Sept 18, 2009 13:00:30 GMT -5
Is...is that a reference to the first elemental archfiend from Final Fantasy 4? Sorry to butt in, but... Nope. Actually, Cagnazzo is the second archfiend. The first is the Earth archfiend, Scarmiglione. Nice catch, though. Clearly my Final Fantasy-fu is not at the level it should be. *wanders off to go to play some FF4*
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Post by Marc on Sept 18, 2009 19:21:40 GMT -5
Meh, I'm personally that the removal of a lot of things that made childhood good for older generations, along with increasing pressure being put on kids, is one of the causes of increasing childhood afflictions like depression and obesity. There's a disconnect there, like it's ok to use your imagination, but if you dare to believe in something or even hint at a willingness to accept the unbelievable, then you've stepped over a line. I'm no dogmatist, but I believe that kind of strict delineation between the real and the imagined is clouding our 3rd eyes and really fucking us up IMO. Not to sound too knew agey about it, but life isn't binary, nor is reality conclusive - even quantum theory suggests that reality is only what we believe it to be. For that reason, idealism is important to the human spirit, especially children, who have a need to believe that there is good in things. Yes and no. Certainly, I want my kids to use their imagination. I love watching my daughter pretend to be mommy or daddy and pretending to do the things mommy and daddy do (my son's still too young). There's a difference, however, in letting/encouraging kids to use their imagination, and not letting them know the difference between imagination and reality. It's tough to tell with my daughter, because she's autistic, but I suspect that she knows that Dragon Tales is just a story (that there's no magic dragon scale that will take you to dragon land), and that the Teletubbies are just a tv show. She enjoys watching the stories involved much in the way that I enjoy reading science fiction/fantasy. It's another thing, however, to tell kids that a specific fantasy figure is real, is aware of whether or not they've been "good" and that he'll bring presents to them if they've behaved well enough. We know as adults, that Santa is fake, but they don't. Kids tend to believe the things that grown-ups tell them. After all, why would mommy and daddy lie to them? Because you're lying to them. It's one thing to tell them that there is a story about a man who brings presents to good children on Christmas, while telling them that it's a story, but it's another to tell them that there really is such an individual. Tell them about Santa, that's fine. Tell them about him, or Jesus, or the god that dies at Winter Solstice if you wish. But if you believe it to be a lie, make sure your kids know that. If you're telling them it's just make-believe, they'll still have fun doing it. The big thing to them will be that you're playing with them. Marc
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Post by Admiral Lithp on Sept 18, 2009 20:48:15 GMT -5
Cagnazzo 2, 3, 4, etc. I can see both sides of the argument, & thus I have no answer. Is...is that a reference to the first elemental archfiend from Final Fantasy 4? No, it's a reference to the fact that her name is Cagnazzo. I've never played FFIV.
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Post by nickiknack on Sept 18, 2009 20:53:11 GMT -5
If I have kids(chances are no) I'll let them believe in Santa, when they are really young. But as they get older I would teach them that he is a myth, but I would tell them that it doesn't mean that they can't take part in holiday fun. My parents never had to tell me that Santa is fake, I kinda figured it out of my own, when I was around 5 or 6. Yet I still enjoyed sitting on Santa's lap, and writting letters to him, because it was just fun. I'm planning on bringing my dog to sit on Santa's lap, when he visits Petco this year, just because it's fun.
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Post by Marc on Sept 18, 2009 21:03:49 GMT -5
No, it's a reference to the fact that her name is Cagnazzo. I've never played FFIV. I almost started to pity you. Then I realized I hadn't, either. Marc
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Post by Mr. Turquoise on Sept 19, 2009 0:10:17 GMT -5
I've only skimmed over the thread, so I'll apologize if I step on anyone's toes a little bit here, but I started a thread on the old boards about this very thing.
I can share my experiences so far, and will be happy to update anyone who is interested as we approach this holiday season.
Granted, my situation is somewhat different from most people here, as my daughter is Japanese-Canadian, and is still residing in Japan (we're still waiting on some paperwork...), but she was here in Canada last Xmas, and the Santa thing is pretty pervasive in Japan.
This year is the first where she has been old enough to really listen and understand what the adults around her are saying. Naturally, I am aware of this, and have already learned the hard way that saying "fuck" once under your breath will lead to a day of saying "please don't say that in front of your grandmother...".
Anyway, I am trying to strike a balance between encouraging her imagination, and encouraging her critical thinking skills. It's actually quite tricky, but I find a good rule of thumb is to contrast reality and what she might see on a DVD. For example, she can watch Peter Pan (which she loves), but afterward, I can reinforce the idea that people don't really fly - it's just pretend. She still pretends to be Tinkerbell, but she doesn't actually believe that she's a fairy.
I've accepted the fact that a number of adults around her will encourage the Santa myth, but I've considered a number ways to have fun with the mystery, while not directly stating that Santa is a real person. I plan to reply to her questions on the matter with questions that will encourage her to seek out the answers on her own. Under no circumstances will I directly lie to her, and if she ever asks me directly, giving me no option but to reply truthfully, I will praise her for cornering me, and then tell her the truth (but that is a fair few years away).
Finally, as a reply to the "it's harmless" comments, I would like to point out that children are very trusting, but they are also very good at noticing inconsistencies. If you tell them to take their shoes off before entering the house, and they see you walking in to grab the car keys while wearing your shoes, chances are, they'll call you on it (as my daughter now does - and she doesn't stop telling me until I take my shoes off). Why take the chance, however small, that your word will become less trustworthy to the very people to whom it should remain the most ironclad?
Honestly is always the best policy. Of course, parenting requires creativity, but creativity =/= active deceit.
Just my $0.02.
Mr. Turquoise
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synchronistic
New Member
Evil baby is coming for you...
Posts: 30
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Post by synchronistic on Sept 19, 2009 2:24:18 GMT -5
I really think it depends on the child, my mother never told me that santa wasnt real and i just never really believed it, other children are more easily led- or want to believe more. I am not sure how i will approch it, i love myths and fairy stories and already read them to her. The issue of her believing them or not is a way off as she is 15 months, however i wont directly lie to her, and i wont be telling her that presents come from santa.
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Post by Bluefinger on Sept 19, 2009 4:49:57 GMT -5
Mr. Turquoise! You're back! Wooooo!
Ahem... anyways:
@captain Hooker: Umm, some bubble bursting here on the use of quantum theory as an example to state that reality is only what we believe.
Quite simply put: Errr no.
At best, quantum theory predicts reality and matter is all virtual. Not completely subjective, just virtual. In that the manifestation of matter is due to the interactions of virtual particles. It is a very wierd part of quantum theory, yes, of which the maths is WAY beyond me, but in summary, it is just a prediction of quantum theory that matter is virtual (FYI, Quantum Theory is nothing BUT maths). Also, if you are potentially referring to the wave-particle duality and the double slit experiment, then all that is showing is the effect of 'measuring' (which requires interacting photons with your desired particle) against a particle being sent through a double slit for creating the diffraction pattern we all so know. What occurs is that the mere interaction is enough to cause the wave function to collapse in the particle and thus stop the diffraction pattern occurring when the particles go through the double slit. It does not rely on 'mind', it relies on particles. The point of the experiment is to demonstrate the uncertainty principle, in which is a major facet of quantum theory. One cannot measure position and momentum of a particle at the same time, and thus there will always be a degree of uncertainty with measurements at the quantum scale.
Quantum Theory does not make reality a more subjective experience. It just explains the wierdness of things at the very small scale.
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Post by Elly on Sept 19, 2009 9:27:23 GMT -5
Here's a tip that's a real budget-stretcher. On Christmas Eve, when then the kids are in bed, fire a revolver in the living room. Then tell them that Santa Claus committed suicide. You cruel person, you. XD Anyway, I was pretty easy when it came to the believing-in-mythical-characters thing. I loved the fun of it at the time, always knew deep down that it was just fantasy (except when I was very, very little), and slowly phased out of it on my own. Funnily, my parents refer to my Christmas presents as being from Santa to this very day, and I'm in my mid-20s. I know they know I don't believe in him; I think it's just a kind of weird stretched-out tradition.
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Post by lesigh on Sept 19, 2009 11:39:06 GMT -5
To the OP: I hope you don't mind a response from a Christian on this matter.
The ideas of Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny are unknown in Eastern Christianity.
I certainly wouldn't raise my own hypothetical children with Santa Claus. In my faith, the advent season is one of fasting, prayer, etc. We are not to make merry, as it were. Christmas Eve is supposed to be a strict fast day for the faithful. Holy Nativity is spent at church, celebrating Divine Liturgy.
Saint Nicholas, the Bishop of Myra, gave away his wealth to the less fortunate. He would likely be horrified that in the West, he's been reduced to a myth who brings frivolous things to those who aren't even in need (unless one goes out of their way to purchase gifts for needy kids). I already celebrate St. Nicholas Day on Dec. 6th.
And, since you asked, we don't do the Easter Bunny thing either. Most of the time, Pascha doesn't even fall on Western Easter anyway. The closest we Orthodox get to the Easter Bunny concept is that we take advantage of the great discounts we get on chocolate candy-including chocolate bunnies after the big date passes for those on the new calendar. However, we do have Pascha baskets. We fill them with things we gave up during the Lenten fast- eggs, dairy, meat- as our fast is strictly vegan. We then break the fast together after communing. Pascha is a much bigger deal than Christmas to us.
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tregnier2795
Junior Member
You have entertained us long enough. Give the other young ladies a chance to exhibit.
Posts: 82
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Post by tregnier2795 on Sept 19, 2009 12:04:26 GMT -5
Given the unlikely hood of my having children, I'd have to say I wouldn't actively teach it, but I certainly wouldn't discourage it, either.
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Post by The Lazy One on Sept 19, 2009 12:36:26 GMT -5
I've always seen Santa as harmless. When I was little, I believed in Santa and the reindeer. I would leave cookies and milk for Santa and carrots for the reindeer. I would stay up late to try to hear reindeer hoofs on the roof.
As for what I'd do if I had children, I honestly don't know. I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.
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Post by katz on Sept 19, 2009 13:30:52 GMT -5
As I'm likely going to adopt older children, they'll probably already be disenfranchised to the whole fairy tale world, and I couldn't justify lying to a kid who's probably already been lied to a lot.
Also, I long for an adult to ask "Is Santa going to find you this year?" and one of my little darlings to answer "No, Santa's an invention of consumerism!"
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Post by DeadpanDoubter on Sept 20, 2009 14:11:25 GMT -5
No one I know of felt "wronged" or "lied-to" when they found out that the cute stuff like this wasn't true. You, then, obviously weren't the kid in first grade who told the others "Santa isn't real, my 'Santa' is my dad"- little motherfuckers tried to knock my block off. ):
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Post by tygerarmy on Sept 21, 2009 10:02:04 GMT -5
No one I know of felt "wronged" or "lied-to" when they found out that the cute stuff like this wasn't true. You, then, obviously weren't the kid in first grade who told the others "Santa isn't real, my 'Santa' is my dad"- little motherfuckers tried to knock my block off. ): Well that's because your not a true Santa believer so your dad had to dress up as him and give you presents, I know he's real because my dad said he seen him last year and because he gave all the things my parents didn't get me over the last few months. And thanks lesigh, 'round here we actually encourage people who think differently than us. The more ideas the better. And I learned something.
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