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Post by Mira on Sept 28, 2009 21:26:19 GMT -5
We have nothing yet to properly simulate a bodily system in action. Maybe in thirty years we can do it with computers, but for now animal testing is the safest way (for the humans that use the products.)
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lightmelon
Junior Member
Don't swallow the seeds! You'll asplode!
Posts: 95
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Post by lightmelon on Sept 28, 2009 21:29:47 GMT -5
great job hurting my feelings. You don't know me, why so butthurt?....lol, what did I do to you?
That's actually pretty close. My view is human-centric because well, I'm human.
Not what I meant, and you know it. I meant comparing animals that are closer to us. As in 'Cows and humans feel the same pain, but it's ok for us to be upset about humans feeling pain but who cares about cows?' Vegetation is vegetation. Not even close.
Okay, and about the way our bodies are built. Ever thought that because humans started eating meat, our bodies evolved to meet those changes so we wouldn't get sick and die from it? That explains away the appendix. And we still can't eat meat without cooking it. We are the only animals that have to cook our meat to digest it. Eat some raw chicken.....you'll get sick eventually.
I consider our bodies developed towards eating vegetables and smaller lifeforms, like...bugs? I wouldn't eat a bug, but many cultures do. But the only reason we can eat big game is because we cook it and cut into bite sized pieces. I'd like to see a human take down a buck with his bare hands and eat it using teeth and claws, raw. Right.
Yes, I am. When they pump them full of said hormones (we'll look at chickens here) it often makes them so big they even break their own legs because their little legs can't support their girth, leaving them unable to move. That has to hurt like a bitch. None of this is natural in the slightest, and can't be good for our bodies either. There is good reason to believe that eating too many of these hormones pumped into cows and chicken is a cause of breast cancer. I can't see that as too far off, because you can look at these girls in Puerto Rico that hit puberty at 8-9, that's a much earlier age than 100 years ago. I once saw a study detailing these things I'm saying, I'll try and find it later.
and as for that:
It's moreso not that it's not natural as much as we do these things and hurt ourselves. Sitting on a couch isn't going to hurt you. Eating growth hormones over a large period of time probably will.
Death is natural, but not in the way factory farms do it.
I don't enjoy putting things into my body that might harm me. I'm cautious.
And I blame the doctrine that this planet was made for us to use as we will. Caring about animal rights isn't good, it's abhorrent because these things were made for us to use by God however we please. Therefore, animal suffering doesn't matter. Polluting the environment and destroying resources doesn't matter, because it was all put here for humans.
Okay, if a bird randomly falls out of a tree, dead, eat it.
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Post by Thejebusfire on Sept 28, 2009 21:41:14 GMT -5
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Post by Yaezakura on Sept 28, 2009 21:49:39 GMT -5
Lightmelon, the only reason we have to cook meat to eat it is because of the risk of the meat containing something other than what we're looking for. Parasites, bacteria, viruses, etc. Those temperature thresholds for cooking meat? Those are all decided based upon what temperatures various harmful things that may be living inside the meat will die off. It's entirely safe to eat healthy meat raw. Your system is more than capable of digesting it. The problem, of course, is that it's hard to verify if any given piece of meat is free of potential dangers. Thus, it's better to be safe than sorry, and cook the meat. This in no way means that we shouldn't eat meat, as even dedicated carnivores sometimes fall pray to this problem.
Edit to add: As for our bodies changing to reflect our diets, evolution doesn't work that way. We have the ability to digest meat before we started eating it, otherwise the meat would have simply killed off anyone who tried. Several species of apes and other primates also eat meat as part of their diets.
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Post by rookie on Sept 28, 2009 22:00:21 GMT -5
Ok, for what it's worth, I likes me some meat. Never had an animal I didn't like. That includes a few things in Korea that I really didn't ask too many questions about so I never really learned exactly what animal it was. But I digress.
Point is, I know where my dinner comes from. In fact, I never miss an opportunity to be involved with every aspect of the main course. From killing the critter to butchering to cooking to eating and sadly doing the dishes after it. Every year I try to make it out to this farm and select a hog. I point to one and say "That's the one I want. Where's the ax?" Every November, I do my damnedest to reduce the local deer population buy as much as my freezer (and the freezers of my friends) will hold. A good year is about 6. Ducks, the same thing. When I was poor(er) that's how I fed my family. I'd sit by the river for hours so that both my kids and my wife could fill their stomachs. If I did good, I'd eat too.
I spent the summers of my youth working on farms. Let me tell you something. The way veal (sorry, you know them as calves) has come a long long way in 20 years. No longer are they chained to the ground at birth. Can it be better? Of course. Animals, even animals that exist only to block my colon in the happiest way possible for me.
Most people, not all but most, will try to be humane in the way they treat animals. Most hunters will try to take the deer/bear/turkey/whatever down in the most painless way possible. And most farmers I know treat their livestock well. At least better than I've seen some dogs treated in downtown Baltimore. Hell, they treat their cows and pigs better than the average person threats the hungry and homeless.
And while we're on the subject, why am I supposed to value an animal more than a person? I read posts like yours. I see those Humane Society commercials showing the skinny puppy right above the web address that honors a PayPal donation but I never see programs on TV about how I can donate to end homelessness. Why is that? The way I see it, we should clean up our own yard before bitching at the state of the neighbors'. Before anyone says we should do both, we haven't yet. And it doesn't look like that will change in my lifetime.
What you eat is entirely your own business. And to be perfectly honest I really don't care if your idea of a good meal is a dinner salad or a 2" think top sirloin seared to a perfect medium rare. I don't. But there is a line. Don't try to make me feel bad about what I eat. Don't try to make me feel bad about where my food comes from. I'm not a cold heartless bastard. I cried at the end of Old Yeller. But trying to guilt me out of a pork chop, rack of lamb, or cheeseburger is not going to win you my friendship. You say that's not what you were trying to do. Please go back and reread your post a few pages ago. Because that's damn sure what it looks like.
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lightmelon
Junior Member
Don't swallow the seeds! You'll asplode!
Posts: 95
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Post by lightmelon on Sept 28, 2009 22:11:38 GMT -5
If you are going to feel guilt, it isn't because of me. I can't do anything to make you feel that way.
Animals ARE in our own backyard, right along with the homeless people. I see a homeless man that looks like he isn't going to rape me, I'll take him out to eat with me. I do what I can for anyone or any animak that can be helped by me. Why don't you see commercials to help homeless people? You do. There are plenty of charities out there for human benefit. Habitat fot Humanity, those commercials to help the hungry people living in Africa (forgot the name of that one, but you know what I'm talking about) and soup kitchens and homeless shelters in cities abound. I will admit right along with you that this world is messed up. We need to help hungry homeless people, we need to end world violence, fuck, there's a lot we need to do, but ignoring things that need to be done (like animal rights) to do other things that need to be done really isn't as productive as just doing everything that needs to be done the best we can do it.
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Post by Vene on Sept 28, 2009 22:21:02 GMT -5
That's actually pretty close. My view is human-centric because well, I'm human. And human-centric is not objective, if you want an objective standard, you need something better. Try saying what you mean next time. You didn't explain why it's okay to be speciesist against plants. Not really, like Yae said, raw meat is perfectly safe for us to eat. The problem with eating it uncooked from the store is how they're processed. Like with chicken, their intestines are ripped open, infecting the meat with the fecal bacteria contained within. And did you miss the part about me being a biologist? You need to try a lot harder than that. And what about the cecum and cellulose? You say we're better suited for purely plants, why can't we digest cellulose? It's a major source of chemical energy that's completely wasted. And why can't we synthesize the needed amino acids from plants? I'm beginning to think that our best option is a mixed diet. So, you're going back to the naturalistic fallacy. Smart move. Until you find that study, I'm calling you full of shit. Growth hormones are peptide hormones, and can be broken down by proteases. Proteases are found in our stomachs and are a major part of our digestive system. By the time they can be absorbed into a cell, they're down to their individual amino acids and are a source of nutrients. You should really avoid making these kinds of arguments to the biologist, I just brought up proteases. The hormone is destroyed in our stomachs, it's a non-issue. Arguing against factory farming is not the same as arguing against eating meat. Fail. There's cautious and then there's stupid. Stupid like claiming that the human body is better evolved to eat plants than meat or a mixed diet.
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Post by rookie on Sept 28, 2009 22:26:04 GMT -5
I didn't mean to attack you personally. This board contains probably about the best of humanity as far as trying to make the world better. I volunteer at a local soup kitchen, you and several others help animals, Ranger Joe does stuff for veterans, I'm sure there are more that I don't know about. And you're right. There is no excuse for abusing animals. None.
It's just, there are those out there who do value animal life more than human, or at least that's how they come across. And with your post on page two, you sounded dangerously close to that. And I've never understood that mindset. Never have, never will. It's like South Park. It's just one of those things I was never supposed to get.
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Post by Vene on Sept 28, 2009 22:29:36 GMT -5
I just want to point out that I don't give a fuck what the people on this board eat. I do give a fuck when somebody comes in and tries to pass of misinformation as science. Misinformation like how the human body supposedly evolved to eat plant matter to the exclusion of animal matter.
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Post by Yaezakura on Sept 28, 2009 22:44:59 GMT -5
Similar to Vene, I don't really care if someone is a vegetarian. I may not agree with their choice, as it's unnatural, and is no healthier than a properly balanced omnivorous diet, but what you eat is your choice.
The point being, you have a choice. We're lucky enough to live in a land of abundance. We have the wonderful burden of too much food. We can choose to ignore valuable sources of nutrients because we have other options. Many people around the world do not. Until the entire world has the glorious problem of having too much food around, I will not stand to hear anything bad about a man who raises a herd of cattle to ensure his family and neighbors have a valuable source of food.
Yes, we should treat the animals as well as we can while they live. They should have the space they need, good food, and proper medical care. When killed, it should be the quickest, most painless way possible. Most get these things. There are some unfortunate cases where this isn't so, but that isn't an argument against eating meat, but against those specific farming practices, such as raising chickens so large they break their own legs. That is horrible and should stop. But the fact that it is horrible and should stop is not going to stop me from enjoying the grilled chicken I'm eating right now.
Eat however you want. Just let others do the same, and don't think less of them for their eating habits. Otherwise you're nothing but a Food Fundie.
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lightmelon
Junior Member
Don't swallow the seeds! You'll asplode!
Posts: 95
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Post by lightmelon on Sept 28, 2009 22:49:18 GMT -5
I did say what I mean. You just seem incapable of understanding it. You jump to conclusions rather quickly. Yes, actually, I did. I specifically said I am concerned with living things can can feel on the same level humans can.... i.e fish and mammals and such. Comparing the systems of a plant and an animal, you are likely to see a difference. BUT when you compare the nervous system of a pig and a human, well, the differences become smaller. I can't be positive, but I'd think when a animal ripped open the side of a deer fecal matter and bacteria from the intestines would mix up when they were eating the side of the carcass. Woo, internet biologist. Until I see that degree, I'm calling you full of shit. Oh, yes it fucking is. Every time you eat a Big Mac, you support factory farms. Eating meat supports a meat industry, and many think factory farming is the most money efficient way to meet supply and demand. I might be stupid, but I've actually became healthier since I quit eating meat. I have more energy, my acne decreased, and my moods are more stable. Oh, and internet tough guy. Oh and I simply googled how red meat and milk and chicken are linked to breast cancer. www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/13/AR2006111300824.htmlwww.foodqualitynews.com/Public-Concerns/Smoked-BBQ-meat-linked-to-breast-cancerwww.sustainabletable.org/issues/hormones/envirocancer.cornell.edu/Factsheet/Diet/fs37.hormones.cfmnewsmine.org/content.php?ol=nature-health/health/cancer/hormones-in-milk-are-linked-to-cancer.txtNow this might not be straight from a medical journel. I'll clarify again, this was from 5 seconds of googling. My purpose was to point out that it is not unheard of. Also, it's obvious to anyone that knows anything about women's health that increased estrogen rates can lead to increased risks for ovarian and breast cancer. The hormones that are given to chickens are estrogen based. Hmm.
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Post by Vene on Sept 28, 2009 23:10:46 GMT -5
And I'm done. There are many people here who will vouch for me and say I have a degree in biology (and I'm not posting a copy of the fucking thing for you). Fuck off and enjoy your ignorance.
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Post by Magnizeal on Sept 28, 2009 23:11:22 GMT -5
Fuck you, seriously. I'm sure you won't listen to me, but I -have- seen his degree. You're not helping your case, I'm sure, but hey, whatever. I really just popped in to say that.
Oh, and all you who answered my question, thanks! Honestly, that was about what I expected, glad to see I was right. ^^
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lightmelon
Junior Member
Don't swallow the seeds! You'll asplode!
Posts: 95
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Post by lightmelon on Sept 28, 2009 23:15:21 GMT -5
Lol. I'm just proving my point, anyone can say anything online. You pushed and I pushed back. Butthurt much?
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Post by Yaezakura on Sept 28, 2009 23:16:04 GMT -5
I'm going to step in here and verify on Vene's behalf. He does, indeed, have a degree in biology. Not everyone on the internet is a lying asshole who will say anything they need to try and support their position. In fact, you'll find relatively few of those kinds of people on these boards. Most of us here are good people.
I think that applies to you, too, lightmelon. But you're way too adamant about your position here. You've been proven wrong on several points, and refuse to admit as much. Five seconds of googling is hardly proof of your position that ingesting animal products and breast cancer are linked. I can find news reports of ass cancer being linked to anal probes from Wookies. That doesn't make it true.
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