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Post by lonelocust on Sept 29, 2009 0:25:30 GMT -5
Wow, this thread has gotten huge in only two days.
I might be only repeating after everything in here, but I'll put in my two cents. I've been a vegetarian for 14 years, and I suggest if you have no interest in being a vegetarian for ethical reasons, and still intend to eat generally healthy, go ahead. However, I wouldn't start with a steak. Your body won't be used to digesting meat, and you might get sick.
I became a vegetarian for health reasons (personal health reasons that were relevant to my specific health situation, not just generalized) rather than ethical reasons. I will still cook meat for friends occasionally, and I do eat dairy and eggs. I do stick to only free-range for environmental and ethical reasons. The factory farming of beef is incredibly bad for the environment and unethical in my view towards the animals due to how they are treated while alive.
For people that do not want to be vegetarians, I recommend a mostly-vegetarian diet with poultry or fish about twice a week. This is about as healthy as a well-balanced all-vegetarian diet and much easier to get essential protein and other nutrients from. Do note that red meat is bad for you, period. Saturated fat from red meat in particular is linked to all sorts of health problems, even after accounting for any number of other variables. If you really like steak, then I would still recommend keeping your consumption of beef to only a steak when you really want it, and only occasionally if you find you want it all the time. There's just no reason to eat cheesburgers on a regular basis, and it's terrible for you even if you generally keep in shape.
I have been contemplating adding fish into my diet because it is so difficult and somewhat expensive to keep my protein intake high enough. However, I'm probably never going to, because after 14 years, even a small amount of meat taken in accidentally makes me really ill. It would probably be a lot of trouble and stomach pains for me to ever add it back in. And additionally I have a weird condition that flares up annoyingly but not dangerously when I eat meat, which was my initial reason for becoming a vegetarian. So that doesn't apply to everyone, but if you do want to go back to meat, I'd try fish and then poultry and then a steak after several months if you really REALLY want steak. Also if you haven't even eaten broth or gravies since youv'e been a vegetarian, start with say chicken stock first, then go up to actual meat, etc.
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lightmelon
Junior Member
Don't swallow the seeds! You'll asplode!
Posts: 95
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Post by lightmelon on Sept 29, 2009 0:39:48 GMT -5
lumberjack, it might help to mention that I don't see you as right. I've thought about all these things before. This is nothing NEW. I know what cellulose is. If I hadn't. I would have ASKED. I like to learn new things. None of this hasn't been recited to me by hunters down here in great ol' Alabama. I've heard all of this bullshit before. I'm so TIRED of people being so hostile towards me.
I could argue simply because I have more points to be made, but I don't feel like it. I'm being disrespected, and talked to like shit. Why should I continue to let people tear into me because of the way I see things? You aren't 100% right just as I am not 100% right. I'm not a masochist. I have tried to be respectful here, but you seem to want to push me.
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Post by wackadoodle on Sept 29, 2009 0:46:41 GMT -5
lumberjack, it might help to mention that I don't see you as right. I've thought about all these things before. This is nothing NEW. I know what cellulose is. If I hadn't. I would have ASKED. I like to learn new things. None of this hasn't been recited to me by hunters down here in great ol' Alabama. I've heard all of this bullshit before. I'm so TIRED of people being so hostile towards me. I could argue simply because I have more points to be made, but I don't feel like it. I'm being disrespected, and talked to like shit. Why should I continue to let people tear into me because of the way I see things? You aren't 100% right just as I am not 100% right. I'm not a masochist. I have tried to be respectful here, but you seem to want to push me. There is no excuse for your behavior except immaturity, coldness, or laziness. Fuck vegetarians. PS: I'm trying to be respectful.
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lightmelon
Junior Member
Don't swallow the seeds! You'll asplode!
Posts: 95
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Post by lightmelon on Sept 29, 2009 0:48:21 GMT -5
lumberjack, it might help to mention that I don't see you as right. I've thought about all these things before. This is nothing NEW. I know what cellulose is. If I hadn't. I would have ASKED. I like to learn new things. None of this hasn't been recited to me by hunters down here in great ol' Alabama. I've heard all of this bullshit before. I'm so TIRED of people being so hostile towards me. I could argue simply because I have more points to be made, but I don't feel like it. I'm being disrespected, and talked to like shit. Why should I continue to let people tear into me because of the way I see things? You aren't 100% right just as I am not 100% right. I'm not a masochist. I have tried to be respectful here, but you seem to want to push me. There is no excuse for your behavior except immaturity, coldness, or laziness. Fuck vegetarians. PS: I'm trying to be respectful. I was sharing my opinion when asked, wasn't directed towards anyone in particular, as there was no names there. If anyone took it that way, I'm sorry.
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Post by John E on Sept 29, 2009 0:50:29 GMT -5
Human front teeth ARE sharp. They're not as large as carnivore teeth, as we're not designed to kill with our jaws. They are, however, meant to cut and tear flesh. There's a reason they're called incisors. Incise means "To cut into, as with a sharp instrument". Humans also have pronounced canine teeth, or fangs. Fangs are meant purely to sink into flesh. My dad was born with fangs*, like real, long, vampire-ish fangs. * He wasn't technically born with them, but they grew in naturally with the rest of his teeth
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lightmelon
Junior Member
Don't swallow the seeds! You'll asplode!
Posts: 95
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Post by lightmelon on Sept 29, 2009 0:52:54 GMT -5
I wish I had fangs =/ my teeth are remarkably unsharp. I've never been able to bite and draw blood in a catfight.
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Post by wackadoodle on Sept 29, 2009 0:53:40 GMT -5
My dad was born with fangs*, like real, long, vampire-ish fangs. * He wasn't technically born with them, but they grew in naturally with the rest of his teeth[/url][/quote] Keep telling yourself that, that the Transylvanian birth certificate you found in the attic from 1730 was a great grandfather with the same name.
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Post by Yaezakura on Sept 29, 2009 0:56:32 GMT -5
lightmelon, you started off in this thread by saying anyone who eats meat is immoral, and "fuck speciesists", or in other words, anyone who eats meat. How is telling the vast majority of the human population, including most members of this forum "fuck you" in any way respectful?
And we're not tearing into you because of "the way you see things". We're tearing into you because you stated opinions as fact, have been proven scientifically wrong, and refuse to admit it. If your response to having been proven wrong was "Wow, I guess I was wrong about that, thanks for correcting my misinformation, though I still don't believe in eating meat", and your opening post didn't include such disdain for anyone who eats meat, no one would have a problem. But it's become rather obvious that no amount of facts will make you change any of your beliefs, including the ones that are demonstrably false. So... welcome to Food Fundie Town.
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Post by wackadoodle on Sept 29, 2009 1:04:59 GMT -5
*files copyright for a restaurant name*
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Post by MaybeNever on Sept 29, 2009 1:08:18 GMT -5
There is no excuse for your behavior except immaturity, coldness, or laziness. Fuck vegetarians. PS: I'm trying to be respectful. I was sharing my opinion when asked, wasn't directed towards anyone in particular, as there was no names there. If anyone took it that way, I'm sorry. Your initial post almost immediately came off, for me, as insufferably holier-than-thou. Expressing your opinion? Sure, that's no problem, even if it's presented badly. But actually caring about your opinion is hard if you call dissenters (which includes me, who eats meat) murderers or otherwise villainize and lambast them whilst holding yourself up, even unintentionally, as some paragon of virtue - a phrase that I completely love, by the way, and would have sex with it if that were legal or possible here. I'm willing to accept that that was not your intention, as people rarely MEAN to come off that way, but that doesn't mean that the perception didn't happen. Backing up your claim with demonstrably incorrect or at best dubious evidence doesn't help either among the crowd here, as you'd expect, basically because most people here are evidentiary hardasses. Vene corrected you - abrasively, I absolutely do recognize, which I do not find to be appropriate either but not unwarranted given the construction of your initial post - and fairly thoroughly, whereupon you questioned his credentials. Fair enough. This is the Internet, and jackasses with big mouths are everywhere. But Vene really does know his stuff. He really does hold the degree in question, sometimes with his penis and an elaborate system of office clamps. He says it gives him sexual powers. Given the nature of his relationship, i.e. five total biological and mental genders involved between three people, especially as compared to mine, which involves exactly one person, I am hard-pressed to disagree. The point is that around here you really can put stock in people's claims of their personal lives and credentials and also that this is like some refugee group for the socially and religiously damned. FSTDT is not like almost anywhere else on the 'Net, and the differences do take some getting used to. I still regularly make a complete jackass out of myself, although this may be a personal problem rather than an environmental problem, and by "may be" I mean "certainly is". People around here are also pretty understanding. So my advice, which I offer in the spirit of assistance rather than to be patronizing, is to 1) give people the benefit of the doubt as to their personal lives, and 2) always be ready to back up your claims with evidence. I would encourage you (and everyone, really) to look into what's called Rogerian Argument. It's quite clever, though naturally not everyone will find it useful or practical. Human front teeth ARE sharp. They're not as large as carnivore teeth, as we're not designed to kill with our jaws. They are, however, meant to cut and tear flesh. There's a reason they're called incisors. Incise means "To cut into, as with a sharp instrument". Humans also have pronounced canine teeth, or fangs. Fangs are meant purely to sink into flesh. My dad was born with fangs*, like real, long, vampire-ish fangs. * He wasn't technically born with them, but they grew in naturally with the rest of his teethI was too. My canines are quite pronounced, although I have seen a few people with bigger. Don't tell the ladies.
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lightmelon
Junior Member
Don't swallow the seeds! You'll asplode!
Posts: 95
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Post by lightmelon on Sept 29, 2009 1:11:50 GMT -5
lightmelon, you started off in this thread by saying anyone who eats meat is immoral, and "fuck speciesists", or in other words, anyone who eats meat. How is telling the vast majority of the human population, including most members of this forum "fuck you" in any way respectful? And we're not tearing into you because of "the way you see things". We're tearing into you because you stated opinions as fact, have been proven scientifically wrong, and refuse to admit it. If your response to having been proven wrong was "Wow, I guess I was wrong about that, thanks for correcting my misinformation, though I still don't believe in eating meat", and your opening post didn't include such disdain for anyone who eats meat, no one would have a problem. But it's become rather obvious that no amount of facts will make you change any of your beliefs, including the ones that are demonstrably false. So... welcome to Food Fundie Town. First off, first thought that popped into my head after finishing reading that is Food Fundie Town sounds like an awesome theme park. Secondly, my disdain for specisists is mirrored for my disdain for say, people who buy dogs from breeders other than adopting from the pound. Before anyone says anything, yeah the dogs are the same species. BUT the notion that one breed, with papers, has a right to live over a shelter dog is not a notion I agree with. This is morrored to my disdain for specisists because of the "Cows and humans can feel the same pain but somehow it's justifiable for cows to feel it and not humans.' Do you see the correlation in the ways of thinking there? I'll apologize for my post being so harsh. I really wasn't feeling well, and I ranted. And please don't continue to assert that every argument that was refuting mine was based on facts. I have plenty of facts that can validate the environmental and health benefits of a vegetarian diet. But point is, I'm really really REALLY tired of arguing.
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Post by Yaezakura on Sept 29, 2009 1:45:58 GMT -5
I'll agree with you on the dog issue. I think it is better to adopt a well-behaved dog from a shelter than to buy from a breeder, especially since the conditions on a lot of puppy breeding farms are deplorable. Not all, of course, some take very good care of their dogs, but there are bad ones out there, and unless you see the farm yourself, you'll never know.
I also agree that every measure should be taken for a cow not to experience pain. I do not believe, however, that "not eating meat" is the way to go about that, but by improving the living conditions of farm animals. They deserve a good life before being fed to the machine. But, being fed to the machine is, quite simply, their purpose in life. Cows would not survive without the protection of humans. The same goes for chickens. Pigs would do alright, but they're notoriously adaptive creatures, who start reverting to feral status in a single generation.
You never did address the fact that domestication is good for the species. By becoming linked to humans, their survival as a species is assured. They rely on us, we rely on them. It's a classic symbiotic relationship.
As for the environmental impact... one vegetarian has no impact whatsoever. Neither do a hundred, or a thousand. The impact of a hundred million is still negligible at best. An impact can only be made if a significant portion of the human population takes to a vegetarian diet. And that's simply not going to happen. Even if it did, an environmental impact could only be achieved by the meaningless deaths of millions of farm animals. At least the death of a farm animal meant for human consumption serves a purpose. Killing them off just to reduce their environmental impact is far more tragic.
As for the health benefits of a vegetarian diet, show me real science that says it offers anything over a well-balanced omnivorous diet. No vegetarian web sites, no "healthy eating" sites which tend to be full of fad diets formed from half-read newspaper articles, but real scientific studies. If you do, I'll concede that point, but I don't think you can, as a healthy omnivorous diet is the human ideal.
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Post by Art Vandelay on Sept 29, 2009 1:47:57 GMT -5
First off, first thought that popped into my head after finishing reading that is Food Fundie Town sounds like an awesome theme park. Secondly, my disdain for specisists is mirrored for my disdain for say, people who buy dogs from breeders other than adopting from the pound. Before anyone says anything, yeah the dogs are the same species. BUT the notion that one breed, with papers, has a right to live over a shelter dog is not a notion I agree with. This is morrored to my disdain for specisists because of the "Cows and humans can feel the same pain but somehow it's justifiable for cows to feel it and not humans.' Do you see the correlation in the ways of thinking there? I'll apologize for my post being so harsh. I really wasn't feeling well, and I ranted. And please don't continue to assert that every argument that was refuting mine was based on facts. I have plenty of facts that can validate the environmental and health benefits of a vegetarian diet. But point is, I'm really really REALLY tired of arguing. Umm, have you ever watched a nature documentary? Animals are hunted and eaten (often in an extremely painful manner, no less) all the fucking time. Humans are just as much a part of this as any other species. Acting so high and mighty about "specisism" makes you sound like a naive highschooler. Speaking of specisism, may I ask what exactly your opinions of cockroaches, flys and headlice are?
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lightmelon
Junior Member
Don't swallow the seeds! You'll asplode!
Posts: 95
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Post by lightmelon on Sept 29, 2009 1:57:40 GMT -5
First off, first thought that popped into my head after finishing reading that is Food Fundie Town sounds like an awesome theme park. Secondly, my disdain for specisists is mirrored for my disdain for say, people who buy dogs from breeders other than adopting from the pound. Before anyone says anything, yeah the dogs are the same species. BUT the notion that one breed, with papers, has a right to live over a shelter dog is not a notion I agree with. This is morrored to my disdain for specisists because of the "Cows and humans can feel the same pain but somehow it's justifiable for cows to feel it and not humans.' Do you see the correlation in the ways of thinking there? I'll apologize for my post being so harsh. I really wasn't feeling well, and I ranted. And please don't continue to assert that every argument that was refuting mine was based on facts. I have plenty of facts that can validate the environmental and health benefits of a vegetarian diet. But point is, I'm really really REALLY tired of arguing. Umm, have you ever watched a nature documentary? Animals are hunted and eaten (often in an extremely painful manner, no less) all the fucking time. Humans are just as much a part of this as any other species. Acting so high and mighty about "specisism" makes you sound like a naive highschooler. Speaking of specisism, may I ask what exactly your opinions of cockroaches, flys and headlice are? I watch plenty of documentaries. I've never had a lice or cockroach problem or fly problem since I've lived on my own. I think my mom treated me for lice in kindergarden once. Hmm. I'd have to say, once, again, that cockroaches and cows aren't comparable in terms of nervous system function. If a fly got into my home, I'd catch it and let it outside or open a window. Headlice I'd get rid of them, because they'd be detrimental to my health. I'd set up no kill traps for rats and mice. I'd kill fire ants because I'm highly allergic (I swell >_< can't help that) if they were to swarm my house and the last time a wasp got into the house my best friend had to open the door and shoo it outside while I hid in the bathroom because I don't do too well with wasp stings either. I'm kinda a wimp about bees and ants. Keeping a clean house is the best defense for these kinda things though EDIT: I really don't know what my opinion of preserving species is. I believe it's important to enact laws against heavily hunted animals in order to keep them from going extinct, but....things naturally going extinct in the wild? I don't know.
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Post by Spark on Sept 29, 2009 2:06:39 GMT -5
I know this came from a much earlier post in the thread, but I wanted to post this video. I consider our bodies developed towards eating vegetables and smaller lifeforms, like...bugs? I wouldn't eat a bug, but many cultures do. But the only reason we can eat big game is because we cook it and cut into bite sized pieces. I'd like to see a human take down a buck with his bare hands and eat it using teeth and claws, raw. Right. Not just bugs, but also frogs, small birds, rodents and reptiles, and anything else that happened to run out of luck that day. For catching larger game, one of the oldest methods is Persistence Hunting. By the end of the chase the animal had collapsed due to exhaustion, eliminating the need for the hunter to wrestle it to the ground the way a lion would have to. Humans don't have claws, but we do have the intelligence needed to invent tools. People could already hunt and kill before inventing weapons, like knives and spears, but it's easier with them than without them. Objecting to this makes about as much sense as complaining about a chimpanzee's use of sticks to catch termites, or the egyptian vulture's use of rocks to crack ostrich eggs.
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