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Post by big_electron on Jun 4, 2010 3:55:55 GMT -5
...that means other than the traditional solid-liquid-gas.
First the degenerate state. There is such a thing as nucleonic degeneracy, which pertains to neutron star matter, so we'll just cover electron degenerate matter. White dwarf matter, where 1cc has a mass of one ton. Also, metallic hydrogen, found near the core of Jupiter, and produced in laboratories with millions of atmospheres of pressure. Degenerate matter remains solid or nonfluid even at temperatures normal for gas or plasma. Its pressure depends little on temperature, and pressure comes mostly from Pauli Exclusion.
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sonickid01
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Post by sonickid01 on Jun 4, 2010 8:38:22 GMT -5
Bose-Einstein Condensate is pretty cool too. Basically when a bunch of Bosons (type of particles with a spin of integer value) are compressed together they don't obey Pauli's Exclusion Principle, which means basically you can have a whole bunch of particles in unison in the same spot at the same time. It's kind of cool
And degenerate matter is cool as well. And supercritical fluid, but I don't get what they mean by "both liquid and gas properties." can someone explain?
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Post by big_electron on Jun 4, 2010 12:24:27 GMT -5
Bose Einstein Condensate requires temperatures near absolute zero. Example is superfluid helium. Supercritical fluid is something so hot that it cannot exist as a true liquid, it's really a gas, but can be compressed to densities typical of a liquid.
Also, glass, vitreous state. A glass is neither liquid nor solid. Glasses do not have a discrete melting temperature, and did not undergo a first order kinetic transition to solid state.
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Post by tolpuddlemartyr on Jun 4, 2010 21:40:30 GMT -5
Isn't a plasma something that isn't a solid, liquid or gas?
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Post by Napoleon the Clown on Jun 4, 2010 22:53:28 GMT -5
Plasma is more or less a gas, except it's ionized. To put it simply, anyway.
Plasma is often considered to be the next phase of matter beyond gas. Fission CAN produce plasma (such as A-bombs), and so far all indicators are that fusion WILL produce plasma. Not all plasma is necessarily all that hot though, so it's more along the lines of the strong ionization.
But yeah, it mostly behaves like a somewhat quirky gas.
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sonickid01
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Post by sonickid01 on Jun 4, 2010 23:58:56 GMT -5
In short yes. Plasma happens when your gas is so energized that the atoms just kind of can't hold onto the electrons any more, if my understanding is correct, so the nuclei are sort of like "screw you, electrons" and you've got this heavily ionized substance with the charges distinctly separately.
So all a supercritical fluid is is a dense gas? Then why was it portrayed as so mysterious in the textbooks according to my memory?
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Post by big_electron on Jun 5, 2010 1:51:41 GMT -5
Plasmas obey the ideal gas law, except you have to count the ions and electrons as two different gases, which further increases pressure or volume, depending on what is held constant.
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Post by Napoleon the Clown on Jun 5, 2010 4:25:44 GMT -5
In short yes. Plasma happens when your gas is so energized that the atoms just kind of can't hold onto the electrons any more, if my understanding is correct, so the nuclei are sort of like "screw you, electrons" and you've got this heavily ionized substance with the charges distinctly separately. So all a supercritical fluid is is a dense gas? Then why was it portrayed as so mysterious in the textbooks according to my memory? There aren't many things that will actually be able to become a supercritical fluid. An example of something that does it more readily would be helium, IIRC. The liquid phase is so close to absolute zero it may as well not exist, so when you bring it to a certain point, it behaves more or less like what, in layman's terms, is a fluid than it does a gas. One oddity of it is that it flows UP the side of the container. (Minor aside, but gasses are basically fluids, too. It's just basically the difference between Jello and steel. Both are TECHNICALLY solids, it's just that one's a lot softer and more elastic... In simple terms.) Heat isn't the only way to get plasma, though. Certain gasses can hold an electric charge sufficient to call it plasma without being dangerously hot. Of course, ANY gas can briefly be plasma if it has a high enough amount of electric charge going through it. Lightning, for example, creates short lived bursts of plasma.
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Post by Haseen on Jun 5, 2010 8:07:26 GMT -5
The thing about supercritical fluids is that the boundary between gas and liquid is gone. In other words, if you have a partially full closed container and start heating it, the liquid's vapor pressure increases. This makes the gas pressure higher, so it becomes more dense. The liquid becomes less dense because of thermal expansion. The boundary starts to blur, and the critical point is where it's gone altogether.
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sonickid01
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Post by sonickid01 on Jun 5, 2010 8:31:36 GMT -5
One oddity of it is that it flows UP the side of the container. I thought that was the bose-einstein condensate. Or could be both. I see. But in terms of traditional molecular definitions of liquids and gases (liquids have volume and no shape and are loosely bonded together, gases have no volume or shape and particles are almost completely unassociated with each other) that are taught in elementary school, it doesn't seem to make sense to have a substance where you can't distinguish the levels of molecular motion. Even with the pressure applied it doesn't quite make sense to me, since these traditional definitions really have to do with the order of the molecules. I think either my understanding of the definition of solids and gases is wrong or my understanding of supercritical fluids is wrong. Or I could just be dull in general.
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Post by calee022 on Jun 5, 2010 13:59:37 GMT -5
Ummm... This thread is way beyond my comprehension. So therefore I say...
I like bacon.
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Post by Napoleon the Clown on Jun 5, 2010 22:10:37 GMT -5
Ummm... This thread is way beyond my comprehension. So therefore I say... I like bacon.Post count +1
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Post by Haseen on Jun 6, 2010 2:56:29 GMT -5
In that sense, it's most like a gas. The volume will expand to take up the whole container. What distinguishes it from an actual gas is that above a certain temperature, it will never condense into a liquid.
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Post by kristine on Jun 6, 2010 4:12:34 GMT -5
so is plasma a gas or another state of matter entirely?
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Post by Vene on Jun 6, 2010 10:57:29 GMT -5
so is plasma a gas or another state of matter entirely? From wiki. "In physics and chemistry, plasma is a gas in which a certain portion of the particles are ionized. The presence of a non-negligible number of charge carriers makes the plasma electrically conductive so that it responds strongly to electromagnetic fields. Plasma, therefore, has properties quite unlike those of solids, liquids, or gases and is considered to be a distinct state of matter"
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