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Post by Trillian on Apr 8, 2009 7:18:43 GMT -5
First off, let me introduce myself. Hi, I'm Trillian, and I believe in God.
I am not a fundamentalist, and I firmly believe in every persons right to live as they desire, as long as they are not harming anyone.
I believe that the bible may have started out as the word of God, but what we read today is certainly not the same thing as what it started out as.
These are MY beliefs, that I have for my own PERSONAL reasons. I do not believe that YOU should believe the same thing, and quite frankly couldn't care less about what you think, unless you are a fundamentalist of any kind (and that includes the atheist fundies out there too.)
Okay, now that that is out of the way, onward.
It seems as though what was once an excellent network of exposing crazy fundies has become a Christian bashing network. Just because someone believes in God, and exercises their right to say so, they are immediately labeled a fundie. Why?
Dictionary : A usually religious movement or point of view characterized by a return to fundamental principles, by rigid adherence to those principles, and often by intolerance of other views and opposition to secularism.
My case in point :
Quote# 61233
Sounds like you dont know what a theory is. Theory is an idea that has not been proven. Gravity is not a theory, neither is germs, cells, nuclear, atomic, and so on.
Evolution IS a theory. You have no facts to back it up. Nature is far too complex to happen by itself, just like a car. When you can you convince me that no one invented the car, but that it EVOLVED ON ITS OWN, AND GIVE ME REAL EVIDENCE FOR IT, then I'll give up defending creation. After all, nature is FAR more complex than a car.
Okay, so this guys facts might be a bit off, but what is fundamentalist about this? He is not saying that an atheist hunt should happen tomorrow. He is actually agreeing that if he is provided with irrefutable proof of evolution, he will give up his defense of creationism. Why fundie?
Is he not exercising his right to free speech, as is the atheists top trump card?
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Post by brendanjd on Apr 8, 2009 7:22:06 GMT -5
He's defending a point that makes no sense. He doesn't know what evolution is, he can't define it, and he's using the worst possibnle strawman (watchmaker) to defend himself.
He can't defend his position using real science, so he's using methods that a flawed, illogical, and prejudicial.
That's pretty fucking fundie.
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Post by Trillian on Apr 8, 2009 7:26:16 GMT -5
Should it matter whether his point makes sense or not? Isn't it our right to believe what we want? If I wanted to worship the giant rock in my back yard, and said so with all the might I had, isn't that my choice? As long as I didn't threaten to throw said rock at all non-believers, am I not entitled to do as I please and voice my belief?
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Post by szaleniec on Apr 8, 2009 7:28:10 GMT -5
Well, he starts off by not knowing what a theory is and goes downhill from there. Fundie or not, he clearly has no business talking about matters scientific.
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Post by Trillian on Apr 8, 2009 7:40:11 GMT -5
And I agree with you - but being wrong does not make you a fundie. He was not discussing this on a scientific forum, a christian forum, or even ranting on an athiest forum. So, I ask, with all due respect, why fundie?
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Post by Armand Tanzarian on Apr 8, 2009 7:45:07 GMT -5
Should it matter whether his point makes sense or not? Isn't it our right to believe what we want? If I wanted to worship the giant rock in my back yard, and said so with all the might I had, isn't that my choice? As long as I didn't threaten to throw said rock at all non-believers, am I not entitled to do as I please and voice my belief? Sure, as long as were entitled to make fun of you worshipping a big rock at the back of your house. That's free speech. But while, yes, we all have a right to believe, most of us here hold a position that ignorance is no excuse for believing something, that if you have beliefs or political stances, you need to be able to defend it and be knowledgeable about it. There must be a reason for believing in God, believing in conservatism, standing for socialism, if do you believe it. Fundementalism goes against all those things; it demands its followers to not educate themselves but blindly follow a doctrine without question. That's fundie. |
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Post by Bluefinger on Apr 8, 2009 7:55:05 GMT -5
He has every right to say that stuff... but in turn, we have every right to mock and criticise.
The crux of his argument is nothing but a notion of "I know Evolution is wrong because of [insert ignorance here]". It is fundie because his position is defined by the wilful ignorance that is perpetuated by certain religious indoctrination. It is nothing but a dogmatic position that is not supported by any actual facts or reason, other than a complete blind faith in a religious doctrine (in this case, a certain part of it).
We mock it because it shows ignorance at its purest form. The guy does not understand evolution, but still feels the need to criticise it. We'd mock anyone who holds any sort of position based on nothing but dogmatic assertions and not on anything based on reasoned logic or facts. In this case, this guy's an idiot, maybe not completely by his own will, sure, but if he feels compelled to criticise evolution, he should at least do his bit to find out the core concepts behind evolution, learn them so he understands said concepts, and then come to a conclusion. That quote, at best, demonstrates he has done none of that and is only parroting the 'party line' of whatever preacher he's been listening to.
Yes, he can say that stuff, as it is in his rights to do so. But, it is also in my rights to completely criticise and mock what he says. Freedom of speech does not mean I have to be respectful to everyone's ideas, it just means we can get to say what we want about topic X or about what person B said about topic X. He doesn't get a free pass to say what he wants and not get criticised for it.
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Post by Redhunter on Apr 8, 2009 7:56:07 GMT -5
Should it matter whether his point makes sense or not? Isn't it our right to believe what we want? If I wanted to worship the giant rock in my back yard, and said so with all the might I had, isn't that my choice? As long as I didn't threaten to throw said rock at all non-believers, am I not entitled to do as I please and voice my belief?
You or anybody else are all legally able to believe whatever crazy shit you want. However, that doesn't mean you are or aren't a fundie.
And yes, it matters completely that his point doesn't make sense, because he holds that stance BECAUSE of religion telling him that evolution doesn't happen. Evolution is a proven fact. To NOT believe in reality because of what your religion tells you, IS fundie. Disbelieving reality because of what your religion tells you, as a matter of fact, is the VERY definition of fundie! |
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Post by Bluefinger on Apr 8, 2009 8:03:40 GMT -5
And yes, it matters completely that his point doesn't make sense, because he holds that stance BECAUSE of religion telling him that evolution doesn't happen. Evolution is a proven fact. To NOT believe in reality because of what your religion tells you, IS fundie. Disbelieving reality because of what your religion tells you, as a matter of fact, is the VERY definition of fundie! [/color][/quote] Wait a minute Red. In Science, it isn't so much that Evolution is a proven fact, it is that all evidence collected has shown that Evolution seems to be the case, and quite strongly to be the case. Technically, it isn't so much that it has been proven right, it is that after 150 years of exhaustive research, it hasn't been proven wrong. It has adapted and grown in scope as more research revealed more extraordinary aspects of biological systems, but the models themselves are never 100% accurate and can only operate within a margin of error. In that regard, Evolution isn't proven right, it is simply shown to be a very accurate representation of what is going on in Nature. Now, for everyday terms, it might as well be said that it is fact, because now, the only things in contention within Science about Evolution is the details and subtleties behind Evolution, but regardless, it isn't a 100% proven thing. It is probably a 99.99% sort of thing, which still puts the Theory beyond reasonable doubt, but still not quite at being 'proven right'. Never being shown to be wrong isn't the same as being shown to be right, if that makes sense. But anyways, enough nitpicking on my part. |
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Post by erictheblue on Apr 8, 2009 8:25:19 GMT -5
First off, let me introduce myself. Hi, I'm Trillian, and I believe in God. HI! You will find you are far from the only non-athiest in these forums. Though you may not believe it, we even have a few Christians (including at least 1 mod). Wonderful to hear it. Sounds like you will fit right in. If you only read the main page, that is an impression you could get, since most fundies we have are religious fundies. (We do, on occasion, get athiest fundies and those quotes do make it to the main page.) Those who find and submit quotes for the main page specifically look for fundie quotes. For that reason, comments from religious folks that are not fundie will not make the main page. We know there are a lot of religious folks - of all religions - who believe the way you do - live and let live. (As I said, there are a lot of people like that here in the forums.) Because there is very strong evidence for evolution, but people like the person you quoted will not actually look at the evidence. Are you familiar with the term "God of the Gaps"? If not, it means "there are some things science doesn't know. Therefore, God must have done it." This concept appears in the evolution "debate" when fundies say "show us evidence that Ceature 123 evolved into Creature 345." So scientists find a creature that is a clear link between 123 and 345. (Call it 234.) But the fundies won't accept that as proof. Instead, they'll ask for evidence that 123 evolved into 234 and that 234 evolved into 345. Rather than clearing up the "gap," fundies just create 2 smaller gaps. Contrary to what fundies claim, we have no interest in silencing them, so long as they aren't harming others. You will see Christian fundies claim they are being oppressed and silenced, which is rather amusing when you consider that approx 80% of the US population is Christian. (There is a pie chart gif that illistrates this well. Hopefully someone who has it will post it here so you can see it.) In reality, what they call "oppression" is just forcing them to live under the same restrictions other do. ("No, you cannot put a Nativity on the Courthouse lawn, unless you are willing to allow Manorah, some symbol of the Solstice, and whatever other symbol any other religion with a seasonal holiday chooses to put." "No, you cannot pray to Jesus before a high school football game.") |
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Post by Vene on Apr 8, 2009 9:37:59 GMT -5
You know what I love, I just fucking love it when somebody registers just to tell us we're 'doing it wrong.'
Have you seen somebody deny evolution for a reason aside from faith? Did you not see the gratuitous use of a fallacious reasoning? This is fundie.
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Post by dantesvirgil on Apr 8, 2009 9:39:09 GMT -5
I'm a tad flabbergasted at the comment "Should it matter whether his point makes sense or not?"
Yes. Yes it matters a hell of a lot whether his point makes sense or not. There are people who don't believe in the science behind evolution whose points make no sense who are trying to legislate their nonsensical points of view into the state curriculums of some public schools. So yes, it matters a lot whether a point makes sense. This particular quote is not from a person trying to legislate his opinion into action--but would he vote to support that action? Probably. When points don't make sense, it's particularly important to point that out. It has real world ramifications.
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Post by The Lazy One on Apr 8, 2009 9:52:50 GMT -5
First off, let me introduce myself. Hi, I'm Trillian, and I believe in God.
Hi! I'm The Lazy One, and I don't believe in God. But that's cool- we have a lot of people on here who aren't atheists.I am not a fundamentalist, and I firmly believe in every persons right to live as they desire, as long as they are not harming anyone. That's basically the same thing I believe. I think generally people don't care too much how others live as long as they don't hurt anyone.I believe that the bible may have started out as the word of God, but what we read today is certainly not the same thing as what it started out as.
Which is very reasonable of you. I don't believe it was ever the word of a god, but to each their own. 
These are MY beliefs, that I have for my own PERSONAL reasons. I do not believe that YOU should believe the same thing, and quite frankly couldn't care less about what you think, unless you are a fundamentalist of any kind (and that includes the atheist fundies out there too.)
Yes, I do think fundie atheists just make the rest of us look bad, and someone I know who is Christian thinks the Christian fundies make the rest of them look bad. Fundie Muslims, according to my Muslimah friend, make the rest of Muslims look bad. I think everyone thinks extremists in their groups make everyone look bad. Okay, now that that is out of the way, onward. It seems as though what was once an excellent network of exposing crazy fundies has become a Christian bashing network. Just because someone believes in God, and exercises their right to say so, they are immediately labeled a fundie. Why?
Well, sometimes non-fundie quotes do sneak through, but if you're going to mention it, it usually helps to have an example (yes, I know you posted an example, I'm just going through this in spaces.)
Dictionary : A usually religious movement or point of view characterized by a return to fundamental principles, by rigid adherence to those principles, and often by intolerance of other views and opposition to secularism. My case in point : Quote# 61233
Sounds like you dont know what a theory is. Theory is an idea that has not been proven. Gravity is not a theory, neither is germs, cells, nuclear, atomic, and so on.
Evolution IS a theory. You have no facts to back it up. Nature is far too complex to happen by itself, just like a car. When you can you convince me that no one invented the car, but that it EVOLVED ON ITS OWN, AND GIVE ME REAL EVIDENCE FOR IT, then I'll give up defending creation. After all, nature is FAR more complex than a car.Okay, so this guys facts might be a bit off, but what is fundamentalist about this? He is not saying that an atheist hunt should happen tomorrow. He is actually agreeing that if he is provided with irrefutable proof of evolution, he will give up his defense of creationism. Why fundie? Well, gravity IS a theory. Here's the Wikipedia link: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity
Germ theory: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germ_theory
Technically, germs and gravity is just a theory, as is evolution. He is a fundie because he was posting it on a scientific forum. Generally speaking, scientific forums are not meant for pseudo-science, which is basically what I regard creationism as. It is fundie because they have no idea WTF they are talking about, and pass it off as something a god did.
Hopefully this helped a little.Is he not exercising his right to free speech, as is the atheists top trump card? Edited because the pink was friggin' hard to read. |
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Post by Trillian on Apr 8, 2009 10:06:26 GMT -5
Okay, I get that this guy is worthy of critism and mocking. I just truly don't see the fundie in this. But I guess that is just my opinion.
I would just like to say thank you to brendanjd, szaleniec, Armand, blue finger, Redhunter and erictheblue for the reasonable responses to a question, which in my opinion, was not judgemental nor criticising, just a question.
For Vene. No need to be so defensive. It was truly just a question, not a judgement on the whole site (or you), which I find truly entertaining for the most part (the site, not you), and have commented on some of the entries. I am not trying to tell you that you are doing it wrong, simply that this particular one did not smack of fundie (in my opinion), and so I asked a perfectly legitimate question.
For dantesvirgin. No need to be flabbergasted. When what you say is said on Youtube, then no, it really doesn't matter. When what you say is said to (whoever you Americans have to say it to for it to become legislation), than yes, it does matter. This was said on Youtube, that was actually part of my point.
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Post by Trillian on Apr 8, 2009 10:10:31 GMT -5
Thanks Lazy One. I agree his facts are a bit off.
I need to go home. It's the end of the working day here in S.Africa and I really should stop being on the internet, and go home :-)
This was fun, I'll come back tomorrow and post some bible verses to get people really rilled up (okay that was a joke - please don't ban me, powers that be!)
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