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Post by Shane for Wax on Nov 30, 2010 13:51:27 GMT -5
War is the time where truth should be guarded closely by lies.
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Post by worlder on Nov 30, 2010 14:21:06 GMT -5
"For a long time now, there's been too much secrecy in this city. The old rules said that if there was a defensible argument for not disclosing something to the American people, then it should not be disclosed. That era is now over. Starting today, every agency and department should know that this administration stands on the side not of those who seek to withhold information but those who seek to make it known." ~Barrack Obama in 2009 He's a fucking liar and hypocrite for opposing wikileaks People can change their thoughts you know. I wouldn't call anyone hypocrite based on statements made several months back.
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Post by Sigmaleph on Nov 30, 2010 14:39:28 GMT -5
Really? What is the cutoff line for hypocrisy, then?
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Post by wolfgangravenna on Nov 30, 2010 14:58:04 GMT -5
Also, the government's version of transparency and raging truthers version of transparency are quit different.
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Post by aboveathletics on Nov 30, 2010 14:58:49 GMT -5
"For a long time now, there's been too much secrecy in this city. The old rules said that if there was a defensible argument for not disclosing something to the American people, then it should not be disclosed. That era is now over. Starting today, every agency and department should know that this administration stands on the side not of those who seek to withhold information but those who seek to make it known." ~Barrack Obama in 2009 He's a fucking liar and hypocrite for opposing wikileaks People can change their thoughts you know. I wouldn't call anyone hypocrite based on statements made several months back. If you promise to do something and do the exact opposite, you are a liar. There is no two ways about it.
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Post by ltfred on Nov 30, 2010 15:34:54 GMT -5
Wikileaks is a small, non-profit, organisation, and no other organisation has agreed to help it edit the files it releases in the absolute interest of the public. It does the best it can, with limited resources, to edit it's files. If they are insufficiently edited, the blame lies at the feet of those who refused to help. So, if the the organization leaking illegally (or at least underhandedly) obtained secret government documents damages our relations with other nations and gets covert agents killed, it is the fault of the government. Makes sense. Wikileaks doesn't know who is a covert agent and who isn't. If they misadvertantly leak some spy's name, it's the government's fault for not telling them to edit it out. If the government wanted anything edited, they would have asked, so clearly there is no danger involved. Well, the US government doesn't have jurisdiction. They're blackmailing the US government not to illegally use politically-motivated force on their members. I doubt wikileaks would attempt to dodge Icelandic, or international, law. Wodward gave up jounalism for the job of court clown. Murrow and Bernstein died. All other journalists repudiated what they did- investigating the claims of politicians- in favour of writing down and quoting 'both sides' of the story; both the pro-buisness, pro-war Democrats and the pro-buisness, pro-war Republicans. I'm not fully buying this one. They have no authority to be held to. If it becomes a point where they're being forced to close, simply move the host to a country where they can't be touched. A conviction in a international legal court could probably close them down. And if they're declared outlaws by the Iclandic government, the US could arrest them forever as terrorists. Basically what I get out of this is they're reliable because the people read and use the info. When put to practice, the same could be used to claim Conservapedia, ED, and even Wikipedia are completely correct because the opinion of people control what they say. Wikileaks rarely writes very much; it uses leaks. So long as those leaks are real, they're totally accurate.
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Post by ironbite on Nov 30, 2010 15:47:28 GMT -5
"For a long time now, there's been too much secrecy in this city. The old rules said that if there was a defensible argument for not disclosing something to the American people, then it should not be disclosed. That era is now over. Starting today, every agency and department should know that this administration stands on the side not of those who seek to withhold information but those who seek to make it known." ~Barrack Obama in 2009 He's a fucking liar and hypocrite for opposing wikileaks There's transparency and then there's open the fucking door and let everyone in. Not sure which I would want really. Ironbite-some things need to stay secret...mostly cause of Bush.
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Post by Shane for Wax on Nov 30, 2010 15:53:00 GMT -5
Some secrets are a good thing.
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Post by aboveathletics on Nov 30, 2010 16:13:28 GMT -5
"For a long time now, there's been too much secrecy in this city. The old rules said that if there was a defensible argument for not disclosing something to the American people, then it should not be disclosed. That era is now over. Starting today, every agency and department should know that this administration stands on the side not of those who seek to withhold information but those who seek to make it known." ~Barrack Obama in 2009 He's a fucking liar and hypocrite for opposing wikileaks There's transparency and then there's open the fucking door and let everyone in. Not sure which I would want really. Ironbite-some things need to stay secret...mostly cause of Bush. Isn't it the government mantra that if we're not doing anything wrong we should welcome prying into every insignificant detail of our lives? If the government has something to fear from the truth, clearly they are doing some grossly immoral/illegal things.
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Post by worlder on Nov 30, 2010 17:14:01 GMT -5
There's transparency and then there's open the fucking door and let everyone in. Not sure which I would want really. Ironbite-some things need to stay secret...mostly cause of Bush. Isn't it the government mantra that if we're not doing anything wrong we should welcome prying into every insignificant detail of our lives? If the government has something to fear from the truth, clearly they are doing some grossly immoral/illegal things. Well, some people... can't handle the truth. That's why we have spin doctors.
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Post by ironbite on Nov 30, 2010 17:36:04 GMT -5
Look there's transparency and then there's what you're advocating. Where sensitive documents meant to keep our law enforcement and military personal safe from enemy combatants. You wouldn't be happy unless every single ongoing and future operation were released for public scrutiny and to allow uneducated civilians to have input in things they have no understanding about. That's how far you'd go. And don't deny it.
Ironbite-there's about 600 posts of you advocating just that.
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Post by worlder on Nov 30, 2010 17:39:35 GMT -5
Some truth are not easily digested.
For they have to be placed in a blender for an extended period of time, until it becomes history.
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Post by aboveathletics on Nov 30, 2010 18:47:20 GMT -5
You wouldn't be happy unless every single ongoing and future operation were released for public scrutiny and to allow uneducated civilians to have input in things they have no understanding about. That's how far you'd go. And don't deny it. I don't deny it at all. And I wouldn't call anything less than that transparency, or for that matter democracy. How the hell are we supposed to make informed decisions about who to vote for if we don't have ALL the facts? With the amount of secrets floating around, you may as well vote for the candidate with the best haircut because that's about all you can be sure you're actually getting.
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Post by ironbite on Nov 30, 2010 19:04:45 GMT -5
Cept we're not in a democracy. If we were this country wouldn't have expanded beyond individual colonies. We're a constitutional republic, not a democracy. Of course the fact that youd on't know that says a lot about you.
Ironbite-then again your insistence that the cops are after us and will kill us just for jaywalking says a lot more
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Post by aboveathletics on Nov 30, 2010 19:16:55 GMT -5
Obama calls himself a democrat. Are you arguing he's a liar, because if so I agree with you. Isn't this supposed to be a site for skeptical folk, who like to see empirical proof before believing in something? If you honestly believe we should just "have faith" that the government has the best interest of the people at heart without having unlimited access to everything they are doing at all times, y'all might as well be creationists.
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