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Post by lighthorseman on Dec 23, 2010 16:28:55 GMT -5
From another thread I gotta ask, can anyone LOGICALLY and INDISPUTABLY GIVE ME DOUBT that the holocaust did not actually exist. And "Jewish" and "Conspiracy" CANNOT be in the same sentence. So, anyone want to discuss those crazy Holocaust deniers who claim that the Auschwitz and Chelmno gas chambers were for lice prevention? Thought better here than in the comics thread.
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Post by Ian1732 on Dec 23, 2010 16:30:44 GMT -5
Well of course the gas chambers were to prevent lice! Death was just an unintended side effect!
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Post by lighthorseman on Dec 23, 2010 16:40:56 GMT -5
Well of course the gas chambers were to prevent lice! Death was just an unintended side effect! Yeah... total holocaust denial is sort of like... reality denial. Although I think there is room to discuss specific aspects.
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Post by Mlle Antéchrist on Dec 23, 2010 16:41:11 GMT -5
Pretty much all of their arguments come down to asking why there aren't more stains on the walls of the gas chambers, how they could kill that many people in the time they had, and where the bodies are. Then, when those questions are answered with reasonable explanations and evidence for the holocaust is presented, they accuse you of being a "sheeple", brainwashed by the Zionist overlords. A lot of the time, this is peppered with the phrase "I'm not racist, but..." and/or "Jew-lover!"
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Post by Shane for Wax on Dec 23, 2010 16:44:02 GMT -5
There's also the argument about how the death camps were not hidden but rather had chainlink fences instead.
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Post by lighthorseman on Dec 23, 2010 16:54:52 GMT -5
There's also the argument about how the death camps were not hidden but rather had chainlink fences instead. I'm not familiar with that argument, enlighten us, please?
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Post by Mlle Antéchrist on Dec 23, 2010 18:21:43 GMT -5
The German government didn't really make a huge effort to cover up what they were doing in the camps, which leads people to wonder how ordinary Germans could still support the Nazis despite what was going on. Basically holocaust deniers are unfamiliar with the concepts of hiding in plain sight and citizens turning a blind eye to travesties due to pressure to conform and/or fear of persecution.
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Post by mechtaur on Dec 23, 2010 18:28:24 GMT -5
Basically, if you didn't act the way they wanted, you might find yourself in there too.
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Post by Mlle Antéchrist on Dec 23, 2010 18:38:18 GMT -5
^^ Pretty much. Although, the scary thing is that the need to conform played just as much if not more of a role in German complacency than fear did during the holocaust. It's actually rather amazing how easily you can recreate this effect over a very short period of time in a group of normally decent, moral people. I mean, think about the way girls act within cliques in high school -- they put up with and dole out all kinds of horrible crap just to fit in. If you're looking for it, you can see this kind of behavior everywhere, though obviously on a much, much smaller scale than the holocaust.
I'm not sure of how factual it is, but there's an account of a teacher trying to make his students understand why the Germans could let this happen by setting up a club-like thing and using some of the psychological tricks the Nazis used during WWII. His experiment worked a bit too well, to the point where even he -- the teacher -- found himself getting caught up in it.
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Post by mechtaur on Dec 23, 2010 19:23:15 GMT -5
Humans have always been falling into fallacies and traps like that. It is how the basics of reputation could enforce morality and thought. And worse yet is how people will act helpless in situations like this ("There was nothing I could do").
A basic experiment on how reputation and power can corrupt and cause major issues can be seen in the Stanford Prison Experiment.
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Post by Shane for Wax on Dec 23, 2010 19:35:30 GMT -5
There's also the argument about how the death camps were not hidden but rather had chainlink fences instead. I'm not familiar with that argument, enlighten us, please? www.codoh.com/revision.htmlwww.vho.org/It's in there somewhere. I'd... rather not look for myself again.
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Post by Armand Tanzarian on Dec 23, 2010 19:54:38 GMT -5
A poll in Stormfront I saw a long time ago seems to suggest that Holocaust deniers mostly do believe the wholesale slaughter of Jews did occur. Just not to the scale touted. Rather than 6 million, the consensus among them seems to be roughly 0.6-1.2 million.
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Post by Tiger on Dec 23, 2010 20:35:39 GMT -5
A basic experiment on how reputation and power can corrupt and cause major issues can be seen in the Stanford Prison Experiment. Stanford Prison Experiment was a horrendous farce that taught us absolutely nothing. skeptoid.com/episodes/4102TL;DR - the experiment's methodology was horrible, the results weren't what people think they were, and they don't necessarily support the conclusions either the experimenters or cynics draw from them. And the argument isn't that humans aren't capable of such brutality, it's that an entire nation wouldn't have gone along with it. Conveniently enough, the other two experiments cynics typically point to are perfect responses.
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Post by Admiral Lithp on Dec 23, 2010 20:35:44 GMT -5
At least some of it is that it's very hard to provide actual physical, tangible evidence that isn't a photograph or something. Same way the moon landings being fake is argued. The problem is, they have no interest in getting off of their asses & going to Germany themselves. Which is what they HAVE to do if they won't settle for anything less than the direct experience.
Of course, once there, there is a nonzero chance that they'll argue that the buildings were part of the conspiracy & not really used for that.
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Post by Tiger on Dec 23, 2010 20:48:17 GMT -5
Of course, once there, there is a nonzero chance that they'll argue that the buildings were part of the conspiracy & not really used for that. They often take the fact that many of them were restored (probably even rebuilt in some cases) for use as museums after the war and turn that into a claim that they're all outright fabrications.
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