Post by A Reasonable Rat on Apr 7, 2011 12:57:39 GMT -5
How am I making excuses for anything? I've said repeatedly that the situation as it is, is wrong and imperfect and sick. And that because of that sickness, our societal environment is dangerous to people who choose to challenge it.
For women, to dress in a sexually empowering way is to challenge societal taboos and male domination. And people should be aware that if they do this, they're risking their safety. Is that untrue? Can a woman go out in an average North American city wearing a tiny suede bikini and be guaranteed nobody will bother her because of how she's dressed?
Well, no, she can't. She's taking a risk. It's totally unfair that it's a risk, and I have nothing but loathing for the attitudes that fuel that risk, but it exists. And I don't think it's wrong for someone to say 'if you dress that way, you're putting yourself at risk.' It's not a judgment, it's just an observation of the world as it is right now.
The argument that because in many cases clothing is not a contributing factor to harassment and/or rape doesn't somehow make invalid the cases where it IS. Comparing our society to the Muslim fundamentalist-ruled world is unfair, because the standards and taboos for our two cultures are very different. If a woman were to wear a tiny revealing outfit over there, she'd be stoned to death. It's horrific and disgusting, the way those women are treated if they step out of line in any way... should they do it anyways to encourage change? Is it worth it to the average Muslim woman to risk her life to fight for her gender's freedom? That's a choice she can only make for herself, and nobody else.
So, women are not allowed to say no? With that attitude, nothing will change. Only reason any progress has been made is exactly because of people who understand just how fucked up that idea is.
I'm really sorry, but I don't understand how you got 'not allowed to say no' out of what I wrote.
To clarify what I was trying to say, - and If I'm wrong please correct me - was that the reason women are expected to make sacrifices in the realm of sexuality, is because society places us on that pedestal. Women are perceived as having unfair control over sex, and so in the interest of male power, we've been burdened with the expectation of being pure and chaste and sexually frigid. Since we 'control' sex and don't really 'want' it, it's then seen as less dehumanizing and oppressive when they decide to take parts of our sexuality away from us.
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Re: 'rapists don't care what you're wearing'
www.ncur20.ws/presentations/14/1474/paper.pdf
www.usu.edu/saavi/pdf/myths_facts.pdf
On a tangent, it is commonly considered sexual harassment for women to wear overly sexualizing clothing in a professional workplace.
(btw, thank you, MaybeNever.)
For women, to dress in a sexually empowering way is to challenge societal taboos and male domination. And people should be aware that if they do this, they're risking their safety. Is that untrue? Can a woman go out in an average North American city wearing a tiny suede bikini and be guaranteed nobody will bother her because of how she's dressed?
Well, no, she can't. She's taking a risk. It's totally unfair that it's a risk, and I have nothing but loathing for the attitudes that fuel that risk, but it exists. And I don't think it's wrong for someone to say 'if you dress that way, you're putting yourself at risk.' It's not a judgment, it's just an observation of the world as it is right now.
The argument that because in many cases clothing is not a contributing factor to harassment and/or rape doesn't somehow make invalid the cases where it IS. Comparing our society to the Muslim fundamentalist-ruled world is unfair, because the standards and taboos for our two cultures are very different. If a woman were to wear a tiny revealing outfit over there, she'd be stoned to death. It's horrific and disgusting, the way those women are treated if they step out of line in any way... should they do it anyways to encourage change? Is it worth it to the average Muslim woman to risk her life to fight for her gender's freedom? That's a choice she can only make for herself, and nobody else.
Apr 7, 2011 1:10:33 GMT -5 @impatiens said:
It depends on the subject. In sexual matters, yes. Because that's the role we're put in.
I'm really sorry, but I don't understand how you got 'not allowed to say no' out of what I wrote.
To clarify what I was trying to say, - and If I'm wrong please correct me - was that the reason women are expected to make sacrifices in the realm of sexuality, is because society places us on that pedestal. Women are perceived as having unfair control over sex, and so in the interest of male power, we've been burdened with the expectation of being pure and chaste and sexually frigid. Since we 'control' sex and don't really 'want' it, it's then seen as less dehumanizing and oppressive when they decide to take parts of our sexuality away from us.
---
Re: 'rapists don't care what you're wearing'
www.ncur20.ws/presentations/14/1474/paper.pdf
www.usu.edu/saavi/pdf/myths_facts.pdf
On a tangent, it is commonly considered sexual harassment for women to wear overly sexualizing clothing in a professional workplace.
(btw, thank you, MaybeNever.)